bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Joe Halpern]

The bug seems completely random. I can't figure out what is causing
emacs to crash. Moreover, it happens relatively frequently (2-3
times/week, sometimes even more often -- I use emacs for hours/day).
One interesting observation: I was streaming music today, which stopped 
at the same time
that emacs crashed.  (No other app seems to have stopped riunning.)


I'm afraid not.

In GNU Emacs 27.2 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.4.0, NS appkit-2022.44 
Version 11.3.1 (Build 20E241))
of 2021-05-11 built on Joes-Mac-Air.local
Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2022
System Description: macOS 11.5.2

Recent messages:
For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type <help> C-a.
Recover auto save file 
/Users/joehalpern/Documents/work/#optimalEBA.tex#? (y or n) y
Auto-saving...done

Configured features:
NOTIFY KQUEUE ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS NS MODULES
THREADS JSON PDUMPER GMP

Important settings:
value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: LaTeX

Minor modes in effect:
shell-dirtrack-mode: t
tooltip-mode: t
global-eldoc-mode: t
electric-indent-mode: t
mouse-wheel-mode: t
tool-bar-mode: t
menu-bar-mode: t
file-name-shadow-mode: t
global-font-lock-mode: t
font-lock-mode: t
blink-cursor-mode: t
auto-composition-mode: t
auto-encryption-mode: t
auto-compression-mode: t
line-number-mode: t
auto-fill-function: do-auto-fill
transient-mark-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs
format-spec rfc822 mml easymenu mml-sec password-cache epa derived epg
epg-config gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs text-property-search time-date
subr-x seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv mm-decode mm-bodies
mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader cl-loaddefs
cl-lib sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils
tex-mode compile shell pcomplete comint ansi-color ring latexenc
warnings tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks
lisp-float-type mwheel term/ns-win ns-win ucs-normalize mule-util
term/common-win tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe
tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode lisp-mode
prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch timer
select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core
term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang
misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms
cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian
cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs
button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1 md5
base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable
backquote threads kqueue cocoa ns multi-tty make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 56943 7575)
(symbols 48 6852 1)
(strings 32 18781 1276)
(string-bytes 1 766499)

(vectors 16 11515)
(vector-slots 8 141083 8574)
(floats 8 27 318)
(intervals 56 529 0)
(buffers 1000 13))

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 21:51:11 -0400
> From: Joe Halpern <halpern@cs.cornell.edu>
> 
> 
> 
> The bug seems completely random. I can't figure out what is causing
> emacs to crash. Moreover, it happens relatively frequently (2-3
> times/week, sometimes even more often -- I use emacs for hours/day).
> One interesting observation: I was streaming music today, which stopped 
> at the same time
> that emacs crashed.  (No other app seems to have stopped riunning.)

Thank you for your report.

First, please try Emacs 28.1 if you can.  Emacs 27 is no longer being
developed.

And second, to be able to do something useful with this information,
we need a backtrace from the crash, preferably in GDB or some other
similar debugger.  The backtrace will show us where is the code which
crashes, and perhaps give us ideas why that happens and how to fix
that.  Without this information, we have no lead to investigate.

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Joe Halpern]

Thanks for the fast response.  I've downloaded emacs 28.1, and am having 
trouble installing it.  What I've done so far is move it to the 
applications folder, but when I click on the emacs icon that I have on 
my desktop, I get the message "This application will not run on your 
computer".  When I click on emacs in finder (the new version, dated 
4/4/22), I get the same message.  But when I got to the terminals
and type "emacs filename", it will open emacs for me.  So obviously 
someething is working right.  I've tried looking things up on the web, 
but the responses seem to presume more knowledge than I have. Would it 
be possible to walk me through what to do?

Thanks,
Jope


On 4/9/22 2:13 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 21:51:11 -0400
>> From: Joe Halpern <halpern@cs.cornell.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>> The bug seems completely random. I can't figure out what is causing
>> emacs to crash. Moreover, it happens relatively frequently (2-3
>> times/week, sometimes even more often -- I use emacs for hours/day).
>> One interesting observation: I was streaming music today, which stopped
>> at the same time
>> that emacs crashed.  (No other app seems to have stopped riunning.)
> Thank you for your report.
>
> First, please try Emacs 28.1 if you can.  Emacs 27 is no longer being
> developed.
>
> And second, to be able to do something useful with this information,
> we need a backtrace from the crash, preferably in GDB or some other
> similar debugger.  The backtrace will show us where is the code which
> crashes, and perhaps give us ideas why that happens and how to fix
> that.  Without this information, we have no lead to investigate.

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 06:38:31 -0400
> Cc: 54810@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Joe Halpern <halpern@cs.cornell.edu>
> 
> Thanks for the fast response.  I've downloaded emacs 28.1, and am having 
> trouble installing it.  What I've done so far is move it to the 
> applications folder, but when I click on the emacs icon that I have on 
> my desktop, I get the message "This application will not run on your 
> computer".  When I click on emacs in finder (the new version, dated 
> 4/4/22), I get the same message.  But when I got to the terminals
> and type "emacs filename", it will open emacs for me.  So obviously 
> someething is working right.  I've tried looking things up on the web, 
> but the responses seem to presume more knowledge than I have. Would it 
> be possible to walk me through what to do?

Sorry, I don't use macOS, so I cannot help you here.  I hope someone
else will.

Thanks.

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Alan Third]

On Sat, Apr 09, 2022 at 06:38:31AM -0400, Joe Halpern wrote:
> Thanks for the fast response.  I've downloaded emacs 28.1, and am having
> trouble installing it.  What I've done so far is move it to the applications
> folder, but when I click on the emacs icon that I have on my desktop, I get
> the message "This application will not run on your computer".  When I click
> on emacs in finder (the new version, dated 4/4/22), I get the same message. 
> But when I got to the terminals
> and type "emacs filename", it will open emacs for me.  So obviously
> someething is working right.  I've tried looking things up on the web, but
> the responses seem to presume more knowledge than I have. Would it be
> possible to walk me through what to do?

Hi, where did you download it from?
-- 
Alan Third

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Joe Halpern]

 From https://emacsformacosx.com/. -- Joe


On 4/9/22 5:07 PM, Alan Third wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 09, 2022 at 06:38:31AM -0400, Joe Halpern wrote:
>> Thanks for the fast response.  I've downloaded emacs 28.1, and am having
>> trouble installing it.  What I've done so far is move it to the applications
>> folder, but when I click on the emacs icon that I have on my desktop, I get
>> the message "This application will not run on your computer".  When I click
>> on emacs in finder (the new version, dated 4/4/22), I get the same message.
>> But when I got to the terminals
>> and type "emacs filename", it will open emacs for me.  So obviously
>> someething is working right.  I've tried looking things up on the web, but
>> the responses seem to presume more knowledge than I have. Would it be
>> possible to walk me through what to do?
> Hi, where did you download it from?

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Alan Third]

On Sat, Apr 09, 2022 at 05:48:41PM -0400, Joe Halpern wrote:
> From https://emacsformacosx.com/. -- Joe

It might be worth trying Jim's builds from
https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds, as I understand it they're
signed and so on, which might avoid some problems with running it.
-- 
Alan Third

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Joe Halpern]

With a bit of effort, that seems to have worked. Thanks! -- Joe


On 4/10/22 1:48 PM, Alan Third wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 09, 2022 at 05:48:41PM -0400, Joe Halpern wrote:
>>  From https://emacsformacosx.com/. -- Joe
> It might be worth trying Jim's builds from
> https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds, as I understand it they're
> signed and so on, which might avoid some problems with running it.

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > It might be worth trying Jim's builds from
  > https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds, as I understand it they're
  > signed and so on, which might avoid some problems with running it.

Would some Mac expert please explain to me (off the list) what's
going on here?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

MacOS signing

[Alan Third]

On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 11:23:32PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > It might be worth trying Jim's builds from
>   > https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds, as I understand it they're
>   > signed and so on, which might avoid some problems with running it.
> 
> Would some Mac expert please explain to me (off the list) what's
> going on here?

I'm not really up-to-date with the ins and outs of macOS's security
model, but as I understand it macOS expects applications to be
"signed" by some developer certificate provided by Apple.

This has never affected me because I always build my own Emacs and, at
least on the ancient version of macOS I'm running, self-built
applications are exempt from this.

There is some way to work around it. It used to be that you just had
to click through a security warning the first time the application
ran, but I think it's more complex now.

The reason I suggested the OP try Jim Myrhberg's builds over the
emacsformacosx.com ones is that not only are Jim's signed, but the
latter use a script to select and execute the Emacs binary, and that
seems to cause further trouble with the macOS security model.

Perhaps someone who actually uses macOS can explain this better.
-- 
Alan Third

Re: MacOS signing

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

It sounds like MacOS is becoming what we call a "jail", like
iMonsterOS.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: MacOS signing

[Uwe Brauer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2100 bytes --]

>>> "AT" == Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:

> On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 11:23:32PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
>> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
>> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
>> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>> 
>> > It might be worth trying Jim's builds from
>> > https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds, as I understand it they're
>> > signed and so on, which might avoid some problems with running it.
>> 
>> Would some Mac expert please explain to me (off the list) what's
>> going on here?

> I'm not really up-to-date with the ins and outs of macOS's security
> model, but as I understand it macOS expects applications to be
> "signed" by some developer certificate provided by Apple.

> This has never affected me because I always build my own Emacs and, at
> least on the ancient version of macOS I'm running, self-built
> applications are exempt from this.

> There is some way to work around it. It used to be that you just had
> to click through a security warning the first time the application
> ran, but I think it's more complex now.

> The reason I suggested the OP try Jim Myrhberg's builds over the
> emacsformacosx.com ones is that not only are Jim's signed, but the
> latter use a script to select and execute the Emacs binary, and that
> seems to cause further trouble with the macOS security model.

> Perhaps someone who actually uses macOS can explain this better.

Which version of MacOS is this? I am using, partially, 10.15 and still
can build my own Emacs. I have not upgraded MacOS to newer versions,
since fink still has problems, but if it is true that MacOS follows suit
iOS policy, as RMS suggests, and jails non signed software, I have a
reason more *not* to upgrade.

Uwe Brauer 

-- 
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against the Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.
I support the EU membership of the Ukraine. 

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Re: MacOS signing

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 08:24:23 +0200, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> said:

    >> Perhaps someone who actually uses macOS can explain this better.

    Uwe> Which version of MacOS is this? I am using, partially, 10.15 and still
    Uwe> can build my own Emacs. I have not upgraded MacOS to newer versions,
    Uwe> since fink still has problems, but if it is true that MacOS follows suit
    Uwe> iOS policy, as RMS suggests, and jails non signed software, I have a
    Uwe> reason more *not* to upgrade.

Newer versions of macOS will still let you run unsigned
software. Depending on how you launch the program, you may have to
perform extra steps via the Security preferences panel, but it doesnʼt
stop you.

FWIW, I never have this problem because I launch Emacs from the cli,
which sidesteps this particular nonsense.

(this is for macOS 11.6.5, Big Sur. Later versions may behave
differently)

Robert
-- 

Re: MacOS signing

[Ted Reed via Emacs development discussions.]

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

> Newer versions of macOS will still let you run unsigned
> software. Depending on how you launch the program, you may have to
> perform extra steps via the Security preferences panel, but it doesnʼt
> stop you.
>
> FWIW, I never have this problem because I launch Emacs from the cli,
> which sidesteps this particular nonsense.
>
> (this is for macOS 11.6.5, Big Sur. Later versions may behave
> differently)

I have a computer running macOS 12.3, which I believe is the most recent
public version and have no trouble running the nixpkgs macport
(mituharu) version on it. As far as I can tell, there's no signing step
in the build scripts, and I've used the same scripts to build it from
scratch with a an additional build-time option without anything
requiring signing that I've seen.

I looked up how to verify such signatures and I think this indicates
that it's not signed, although I'm not 100% certain I got the command
right:

❯ codesign -dv --verbose=4 /nix/store/0hysqxpi2fwrwpivza8ca7z5fr9hyzkh-emacs-mac-27.2-8.2/Applications/Emacs.app
/nix/store/0hysqxpi2fwrwpivza8ca7z5fr9hyzkh-emacs-mac-27.2-8.2/Applications/Emacs.app: code object is not signed at all

I also can launch it from the CLI or via Spotlight without any
difficulty, except that Spotlight has a hard time finding the most
recent version consistently, so I mostly launch from my terminal now,
just to ensure it's using the right one.

-- Ted Reed

Re: MacOS signing

[Alan Third]

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 11:19:49PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
> It sounds like MacOS is becoming what we call a "jail", like
> iMonsterOS.

I believe there are concerns in the non-fanboy Mac community that
that's the plan, but I don't really follow Apple news much.

-- 
Alan Third

bug#54810: 27.2; emacs crashes randomly on Mac with Bug Sur 11.5.2

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Joe Halpern <halpern@cs.cornell.edu> writes:

> With a bit of effort, that seems to have worked. Thanks! -- Joe

If I'm reading this bug report correctly, there's nothing further to do
here, and I'm therefore closing it.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no