Misleading messages about new versions

Misleading messages about new versions

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I just got the message below.  I suspect it announces the release
of a new version, but the wording gives that so much importance
that it is more befitting a new package than a new version.

If it said

  There is a new version of Soap-Client, version 3.1.3
  in GNU ELPA.

it would avoid giving the wrong impression.

From: ELPA update <do.not.reply@elpa.gnu.org>
To: gnu-emacs-sources@gnu.org
Subject: [GNU ELPA] Soap-Client version 3.1.3
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 05:03:33 -0500
Message-ID: <85v8xn2g3u.fsf@elpa.gnu.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
Reply-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Cc: Alexandru Harsanyi <AlexHarsanyi@gmail.com>

Version 3.1.3 of package Soap-Client has just been released in GNU ELPA.
You can now find it in M-x package-list RET.

Soap-Client describes itself as:
  Access SOAP web services

More at https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/soap-client.html



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Misleading messages about new versions

[Stefan Monnier]

> If it said
>
>   There is a new version of Soap-Client, version 3.1.3
>   in GNU ELPA.
>
> it would avoid giving the wrong impression.

Currently the code doesn't bother to distinguish new packages from
new versions.

As mentioned in the other thread (about the "dual" request), this is just
a small matter of programming.


        Stefan

How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Can someone please make a list of the last 10 packages added to
GNU ELPA, and the dates of adding them, and likewise for NonGNU ELPA?
If we're concerned about how to avoid disturbing people with too
many messages, let's find out how many they would be.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> Can someone please make a list of the last 10 packages added to
> GNU ELPA, and the dates of adding them, and likewise for NonGNU ELPA?
> If we're concerned about how to avoid disturbing people with too
> many messages, let's find out how many they would be.

It seems my message from a few days ago (<871r09207b.fsf@posteo.net>)
was not properly sent out, so I'll post it again:

viero$ git log --format="%aD	%s" | egrep "(Add|New) package" | head -10
Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:28:37 -0500	* elpa-packages (parser-generator): New package
Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:40:35 -0500	* elpa-packages (org-transclusion): New package
Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:30:33 -0500	* elpa-packages (kind-icon): New package
Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:23:25 -0500	* elpa-packages (mct): New package
Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:49:05 +0200	* elpa-packages (embark-consult): Add package
Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:48:58 +0200	* elpa-packages (embark): Add package
Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:49:09 +0200	* elpa-packages (vertico-posframe): Add package
Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:38:38 +0200	* elpa-packages (capf-autosuggest): Add package
Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:15:41 -0400	* elpa-packages (comint-mime): New package
Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:22:50 +0200	* elpa-packages (compat): Add package

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > It seems my message from a few days ago (<871r09207b.fsf@posteo.net>)
  > was not properly sent out, so I'll post it again:

Thanks.

  ...
  > Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:49:05 +0200	* elpa-packages (embark-consult): Add package
  > Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:48:58 +0200	* elpa-packages (embark): Add package
  > Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:49:09 +0200	* elpa-packages (vertico-posframe): Add package
  > Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:38:38 +0200	* elpa-packages (capf-autosuggest): Add package
  > Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:15:41 -0400	* elpa-packages (comint-mime): New package
  > Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:22:50 +0200	* elpa-packages (compat): Add package

Given that info, I think that posting these on info-gnu-emacs would be
a bad idea.  That list has a very low volume of mail.  This could make
it 10 or 20 times as much.  There are probably people on it who don't
want to get a higher volume from it.

So, where is a good place to announce new packages in GNU ELPA?
Any suggestions?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 23:30:25 -0500
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
>   > Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:49:05 +0200	* elpa-packages (embark-consult): Add package
>   > Sun, 31 Oct 2021 00:48:58 +0200	* elpa-packages (embark): Add package
>   > Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:49:09 +0200	* elpa-packages (vertico-posframe): Add package
>   > Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:38:38 +0200	* elpa-packages (capf-autosuggest): Add package
>   > Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:15:41 -0400	* elpa-packages (comint-mime): New package
>   > Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:22:50 +0200	* elpa-packages (compat): Add package
> 
> Given that info, I think that posting these on info-gnu-emacs would be
> a bad idea.  That list has a very low volume of mail.  This could make
> it 10 or 20 times as much.  There are probably people on it who don't
> want to get a higher volume from it.

We could use a telltale Subject, or some X-* header that people could
use to filter out those.

> So, where is a good place to announce new packages in GNU ELPA?
> Any suggestions?

gnu-emacs-sources@gnu.org is available, and is actually already used
for such announcements, see its archives at

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-emacs-sources/

So I'm unsure why this issue needs any action at this time, since we
seem to be doing TRT already.  Or what am I missing?

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Given that info, I think that posting these on info-gnu-emacs would be
  > > a bad idea.  That list has a very low volume of mail.  This could make
  > > it 10 or 20 times as much.  There are probably people on it who don't
  > > want to get a higher volume from it.

  > We could use a telltale Subject, or some X-* header that people could
  > use to filter out those.

I don't follow.  Could you describe that proposal more concretely?
What would be in the messages we post, and who would filter?

  > So I'm unsure why this issue needs any action at this time, since we
  > seem to be doing TRT already.  Or what am I missing?

Right now, every new version in GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA is announced
on a list, gnu-emacs-sources, that not many people read.

I think that we should announce NEW packages in GNU ELPA in a bigger
list where more people will see them.  Maybe also NEW packages in
NonGNU ELPA.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: philipk@posteo.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 23:14:25 -0500
> 
>   > > Given that info, I think that posting these on info-gnu-emacs would be
>   > > a bad idea.  That list has a very low volume of mail.  This could make
>   > > it 10 or 20 times as much.  There are probably people on it who don't
>   > > want to get a higher volume from it.
> 
>   > We could use a telltale Subject, or some X-* header that people could
>   > use to filter out those.
> 
> I don't follow.  Could you describe that proposal more concretely?
> What would be in the messages we post, and who would filter?

If the Subject starts with "[ELPA News]", people who aren't interested
can configure their MUA to ignore those messages.

>   > So I'm unsure why this issue needs any action at this time, since we
>   > seem to be doing TRT already.  Or what am I missing?
> 
> Right now, every new version in GNU ELPA or NonGNU ELPA is announced
> on a list, gnu-emacs-sources, that not many people read.
> 
> I think that we should announce NEW packages in GNU ELPA in a bigger
> list where more people will see them.  Maybe also NEW packages in
> NonGNU ELPA.

The only bigger lists are this one and help-gnu-emacs.  Any other list
would be a new list that will suffer from the same problem as
gnu-emacs-sources.  I thought emacs-devel and help-gnu-emacs were
deemed not to be the best candidates, but if I misunderstood, I have
nothing against using them.  However, I think you should keep in mind
that most Emacs users nowadays rarely if ever read mailing lists, let
alone subscribe to them.  So I'm not at all sure the rejection of
gnu-emacs-sources is justified, especially since that is practice we
use for a long time, and people who want to know about ELPA news
learned about that list long ago.

Let's not make the perfect be the enemy of the good!

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Rudolf Schlatte]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> So, where is a good place to announce new packages in GNU ELPA?
> Any suggestions?

I think the best place is within Emacs itself, and it is implemented.
When I run `list-packages', all new packages are listed at the beginning
of the resulting buffer, clearly marked as `new' and with a one-line
description.

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I think the best place is within Emacs itself, and it is implemented.
  > When I run `list-packages', all new packages are listed at the beginning
  > of the resulting buffer, clearly marked as `new' and with a one-line
  > description.

It sounds like the only drawback of that method of informing people
is that it depends on them to run `list-packages' from time to time.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Tomas Hlavaty]

On Mon 14 Feb 2022 at 23:30, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> So, where is a good place to announce new packages in GNU ELPA?
> Any suggestions?

A RSS feed on GNU ELPA?

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Tomas Hlavaty <tom@logand.com> writes:

> On Mon 14 Feb 2022 at 23:30, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>> So, where is a good place to announce new packages in GNU ELPA?
>> Any suggestions?
>
> A RSS feed on GNU ELPA?

I also agree, and find this more appreciate than messages on a mailing
list.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > A RSS feed on GNU ELPA?

  > I also agree, and find this more appreciate than messages on a mailing
  > list.

It can't hurt to have an RSS feed for this, and I think it would not
be a lot of work.  If someone wants to do that, I think it would be a
good thing.

I think we should also post a weekly list of new ELPA packages on
info-gnu-emacs, in weeks when there are any new packages.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: How often do we have new packages in Whichever ELPA?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > So, where is a good place to announce new packages in GNU ELPA?
  > > Any suggestions?

  > A RSS feed on GNU ELPA?

That is a good idea.

Would someone like to implement it automatically?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Misleading messages about new versions

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > As mentioned in the other thread (about the "dual" request), this is just
  > a small matter of programming.

Would you like to implement distinguishing them?  The two messages
should be very different so that no one fails to recognize which is
which.

Here are messages I suggest.  I think they should make the point very clear.

For a new package, it could say,

  We're glad to announce adding the new package Whatsit to XXGNU ELPA.
  The initial version number is X.Y.  Here's what Whatsit does:

For a new version, it could say,

  The package Whatsit in XXGNU ELPA now has a new version, X.Y.
  Here's what the package does:


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Misleading messages about new versions

[Stefan Monnier]

>   > As mentioned in the other thread (about the "dual" request), this is just
>   > a small matter of programming.
> Would you like to implement distinguishing them?

It's been in my todo for a while already, but it's never been anywhere
near the top, so I think someone else will have to do it.


        Stefan

Re: Misleading messages about new versions

[Benjamin Riefenstahl]

Hi Richard,

Richard Stallman writes:
> For a new package, it could say,
>
>   We're glad to announce adding the new package Whatsit to XXGNU ELPA.
>   The initial version number is X.Y.  Here's what Whatsit does:

Careful, a machine (program) that pretends to have feelings is a spam
generator in my book.  I would not subscribe to such a bot on principle.

benny

Re: Misleading messages about new versions

[Corwin Brust]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2050 bytes --]

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022, 11:28 Benjamin Riefenstahl <
b.riefenstahl@turtle-trading.net> wrote:

> Hi Richard,
>
> Richard Stallman writes:
> > For a new package, it could say,
> >
> >   We're glad to announce adding the new package Whatsit to XXGNU ELPA.
> >   The initial version number is X.Y.  Here's what Whatsit does:
>
> Careful, a machine (program) that pretends to have feelings is a spam
> generator in my book.  I would not subscribe to such a bot on principle.
>

Benny,

Respectfully, I consider this caution misguided as applied to the quotation
you kept.

We are not talking about a bot in the sense of interactive software that
generates responses from end-user interaction.
Any messages that we decide to send will be templates hand-crafted by Emacs
developers.  To deny "personality" in such messages is to deny personality
to ourselves in our capacity as developers, and by extension to the GNU
project.

That said, I think it makes sense to agree on terms and boundaries
quantifying any external character we reflect in automated communications
respecting Emacs. This, perhaps the only concesus persona possible would be
for none to be discernable.

I suspect we can do (in my view) more.  I least, I think it is worth
discussing in concrete terms and with examples and counter examples, what
may be possible in this area and if that would advance our goals and
honoring our principals.

How do you stand on ”Exciting news, we've added <pkg> to EPLA" vs RMS's
original proposal, above?   What if we added an exclamation point there?
(I think it's better without.)

To be clear,. I do agree that a message which is (or pretends to be) from a
program of some seeming "intelegence" and also uses/implies (e.g) the first
person, would be off-putting and, indeed, concerning.  For example, if
Richard's suggestion had been "Hi, this is the GNU ELPA upload ferry with
exciting news about a new package", or such, I think I would take your
point and agree with the need for caution.

WDYT?

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Re: Misleading messages about new versions

[Benjamin Riefenstahl]

Hi Corwin,

Corwin Brust writes:
> Respectfully, I consider this caution misguided as applied to the
> quotation you kept.

Thanks for considering this in so much detail.  I understand where this
is coming from, but it takes active reasoning for me to get there, and
in the end I still do not agree.  Impressions and instinctive reactions
count and stuff like this is just off-putting to me.  Maybe I'm too
sensitive.

I do not think there is more to say from my side.

so long, benny

Re: Misleading messages about new versions

[Jean Louis]

* Benjamin Riefenstahl <b.riefenstahl@turtle-trading.net> [2022-02-14 20:28]:
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Richard Stallman writes:
> > For a new package, it could say,
> >
> >   We're glad to announce adding the new package Whatsit to XXGNU ELPA.
> >   The initial version number is X.Y.  Here's what Whatsit does:
> 
> Careful, a machine (program) that pretends to have feelings is a spam
> generator in my book.  I would not subscribe to such a bot on principle.

Somebody was behind the origination of communication. An original
author did write "We're glad to announce...". And Emacs users and
developers are really glad to expand software for Emacs. Aren't we?

When reading a book, one reads what original author intended. Even
though author could be dead, or not existent. Authors of books will
often put many of their personal feelings and observations of other
people's feelings into written stories. That some time passed after
receiving the communication is clear. 

A book written by author could be real or imaginary. Both types could
be very moving. 

Apart from that, intention of notices is to tell which package is
there as new and that it shall be announced. 

Package reviews are welcome. Everybody is free to write reviews and
send us announcements.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

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Re: Misleading messages about new versions

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   We're glad to announce adding the new package Whatsit to XXGNU ELPA.
  > >   The initial version number is X.Y.  Here's what Whatsit does:

  > Careful, a machine (program) that pretends to have feelings is a spam
  > generator in my book.

It is not pretense.  "We" refers to the Emacs maintainers.

I think you're misusing the word "spam".  It refers to commercial
publicity sent to people who did not ask for it.  Announcements from
a project to users who sign up for them are not spam. 



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)