From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: character sets as they =?utf-8?Q?relat?= =?utf-8?B?ZSB0byDigJxSYXfigJ0=?= string literals for elisp Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 21:19:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4209edd83cfee7c84b2d75ebfcd38784fa21b23c.camel@crossproduct.net> <87v92ft9z6.fsf@db48x.net> <87o885tyle.fsf@db48x.net> <83k0it6lu5.fsf@gnu.org> <87k0isu7hz.fsf_-_@db48x.net> <87a6jotszy.fsf@db48x.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31132"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Brooks Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 04 23:30:58 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mXVY2-0007vD-H0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 23:30:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38478 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXVY0-0003dW-NJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 17:30:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56726) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXVN1-0000wv-JQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 17:19:35 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:14559 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXVMz-0001ee-DL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 17:19:35 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 29854 invoked by uid 3782); 4 Oct 2021 21:19:19 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4fe15cb2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.92.178]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 23:19:19 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 11484 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Oct 2021 21:19:19 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87a6jotszy.fsf@db48x.net> X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.1; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:276271 Archived-At: Hello, Daniel. On Mon, Oct 04, 2021 at 13:49:53 -0700, Daniel Brooks wrote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> From: Daniel Brooks > >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, anna@crossproduct.net > >> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 08:36:40 -0700 > >> Eli Zaretskii writes: [ .... ] > >> PS: it occurs to me to wonder if my use of Unicode in the prose of this > >> message, outside of the examples, detracted from its readability in any > >> way? > > If someone is reading this on a text-mode terminal, it could. It does for me. > I am asking if anyone reading my messages, either this one or any of the > last dozen I have sent to the list, have noticed any specific > problems. I have used non–ascii characters in all of them. I’m wondering > if anyone even noticed. If nobody noticed, or if they didn’t detract > from readability, then it is unlikely that Unicode is a problem in > general. These characters displayed as inverse question marks on my Linux console. I can understand people wanting their non-ascii names to be properly spelt (just as I prefer my non-ascii home city Nürnberg to be correctly spelt). What I don't really understand is including punctuation characters which can't be typed on the writer's keyboard, except by awkward workarounds. > Yuri Khan writes: > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 01:58, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> If someone is reading this on a text-mode terminal, it could. > > We should probably invent a term more accurate than “text-mode > > terminal” for things that fail to display text. > True! :D > I prefer to say “Linux console” in reference to the one terminal > emulator that we know has severe problems with Unicode. There are many > terminal emulators out there, and I’m sure a few of them have problems, > but for the most part I think all of them can handle Unicode pretty well > primarily because they all rely on OS libraries to do the heavy > lifting. The Linux console is handicapped in this area primarily because > it is inside the kernel, and thus cannot dynamically load libharfbuzz > and libfreetype. One of the reasons I use Linux is because I have a 16 x 8 dot fontset, and don't have to cope with all the vagaries of fancy, sometimes blurred, fonts used on GUIs. There are quite a few others. Why use a graphical environment for doing text work? > (But I can imagine a hypothetical future kernel module which statically > links against them in order to provide a full–featured terminal in the > console.) I can't. The Linux console has got to work to bring up a new machine, should one be doing this from scratch rather than installing a distribution with ready made X. For this, it's _got_ to work directly in the kernel. > db48x -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).