Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Jean Louis]

As I am exploring Hypertext¹ systems in Emacs maybe advices from
experienced programmers could help me in the endeavor:

- I would like to explore options to create a rather relaxed hypertext
  system. Now I am using tabulated-list-mode and this is working very
  good. Hyperlinks are everywhere as each line is a hyperlink to
  something. Jump to related person, group, organization, timestamps,
  tags, send email, many options are possible as the lines in
  tabulated-list-mode are rigid structure; Something more relaxed
  would be something as similar to below:

- Is there maybe well known other ways to dynamically create the
  outline? That would mean that each outline has its action assigned,
  keys, or buttons, where user could click or press a key. The ELPA
  package `ztree' seem to be similar to what I could use, yet I am not
  sure. Maybe there is some other way? Semantic Synchrony:
  https://github.com/synchrony/smsn is also something similar to what
  I would need. Org may be dynamically created and that is one way of
  doing it. Maybe there are other ways?

- The HTML and eww Hypertext is not an option for me, that could be
  only good for reporting, but not for dynamically bound list of
  functions to specific hyperlinks; One same link on my side can
  provide different target depending of the key or function invoked.

- I am thinking if I could maybe use Info mode on the fly to
  dynamically create Info pages as it is pretty much complete
  Hypertext system. It would probably be harder to assign various
  functions to the same hyperlink. If this is maybe possible in the
  Texinfo mode to assign various functions to single hyperlink, I
  would like to know.


Any other suggestions are welcome. 

Thanks in advance,
Jean Louis


[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext

Re: Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

> - The HTML and eww Hypertext is not an option for me, that
>   could be only good for reporting, but not for dynamically
>   bound list of functions to specific hyperlinks; One same
>   link on my side can provide different target depending of
>   the key or function invoked.

The web has been the king for decades, as for dynamic web
there are tons of mature, established technologies, e.g.
PHP (personal home page), Ajax, CGI (Central Gateway
interface, for example C and MySQL) for old-schoolers,
JavaScript (has nowadays similarities with Lisp even I've
heard, isn't the once "shabby-construction web scripting
language with a C++ syntax" people liked to ridicule), as for
pure programming Python has faster devel and more resources
than Perl, you are already familiar with the seekwells, the
once USENET architecture of distribute-to-many (called
propagate) is having a renaissance with Mastodon and is there
called "a federation" (to contrast with P2P which is
peer-to-peer, but also client-server which is a 1:1
relationship), you can do whatever with the web, except for
Gopher maybe. Don't pick some arcane markup which no one else
uses, use whatever everyone else is using only use it better,
otherwise you'll become a desert-penguin pretty fast... try
the Tamagotchi for emotional support.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Eduardo Ochs]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 at 20:46, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU
Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Jean Louis wrote:
>
> > - The HTML and eww Hypertext is not an option for me, that
> >   could be only good for reporting, but not for dynamically
> >   bound list of functions to specific hyperlinks; One same
> >   link on my side can provide different target depending of
> >   the key or function invoked.
>
> The web has been the king for decades, as for dynamic web
> there are tons of mature, established technologies, e.g.
> PHP (personal home page), Ajax, CGI (Central Gateway
> interface, for example C and MySQL) for old-schoolers,
> JavaScript (has nowadays similarities with Lisp even I've
> heard, isn't the once "shabby-construction web scripting
> language with a C++ syntax" people liked to ridicule), as for
> pure programming Python has faster devel and more resources
> than Perl, you are already familiar with the seekwells, the
> once USENET architecture of distribute-to-many (called
> propagate) is having a renaissance with Mastodon and is there
> called "a federation" (to contrast with P2P which is
> peer-to-peer, but also client-server which is a 1:1
> relationship), you can do whatever with the web, except for
> Gopher maybe. Don't pick some arcane markup which no one else
> uses, use whatever everyone else is using only use it better,
> otherwise you'll become a desert-penguin pretty fast... try
> the Tamagotchi for emotional support.
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal


English is not my first language, but to me "use whatever everyone
else is using" seems to imply "don't use niche tools that are used by
small groups of very enthusiastic hackers that love them very much".

I have the impression that Jean Louis is looking for things that are
nice to use AND to hack.

  [[]], E.
    http://angg.twu.net/#eev
    http://angg.twu.net/LATEX/2019emacsconf.pdf#page=10

Re: Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Eduardo Ochs wrote:

> English is not my first language, but to me "use whatever
> everyone else is using" seems to imply "don't use niche
> tools that are used by small groups of very enthusiastic
> hackers that love them very much".

OK, but what exactly is the hacker alternative to HTTP, HTML,
and the web, then?

Non-commercial/capitalist project without a license:

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/blog/tree-house/summer-2021.html

I'm not against licenses per se... or wait, we are not talking
about that? We are talking about the web. Yes, there were many
attempts, for Mac there was a popular program called
Hypercard, the GNU info pages of course, and others I either
don't know at all or don't know of right now. It doesn't
matter - now, it is, or should be, all web, all in the open.

But attempts are good, that happens in nature as well as human
society all the time. Only when the Red Army enters Berlin,
you don't apply for membership in the NSDAP, you know what I'm
saying? When one side is one-sidedly victorious, you do
the best out of that instead of do something meaningless with
something that do not apply anymore. Is what I would
do. Maybe!

Don't worry. We will add your technological distinctiveness to
our own. Resistance is futile.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2021-06-08 04:21]:
> Eduardo Ochs wrote:
> 
> > English is not my first language, but to me "use whatever
> > everyone else is using" seems to imply "don't use niche
> > tools that are used by small groups of very enthusiastic
> > hackers that love them very much".
> 
> OK, but what exactly is the hacker alternative to HTTP, HTML,
> and the web, then?

It does not matter if for hacker or not. Hypertext systems existed
long before the WWW.

Org - it has hypertext capacity and is not related to WWW, but can be
published to WWW.

GNU Hyperbole is a hypertext system, it has capacity to build such. It
makes hypertext out of everything.

xref package is specific hypertext system that uses Emacs Lisp

definitions for cross references.

eev - it is hypertext system

Texinfo is hypertext system

Emacs has more of it as built-in, for example `button.el' library for
clickable buttons. 

And I am sure I missed some of those.

Outside of Emacs there is so much more.

If somebody knows if I can do more with Texinfo hyperlinks in Emacs
let me know. Maybe I can make those hyperlinks more dynamic, for
example by pressing a and hyperlink, maybe I can get its attributes,
by pressing r and hyperlink maybe I could get relations, by activing I
could go to target and similar, that is what I am looking for, a
hyperlink that can be activated in numerous ways.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Jean Louis]

* Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs@gmail.com> [2021-06-08 03:43]:
> English is not my first language, but to me "use whatever everyone
> else is using" seems to imply "don't use niche tools that are used by
> small groups of very enthusiastic hackers that love them very much".
> 
> I have the impression that Jean Louis is looking for things that are
> nice to use AND to hack.

WWW is good informational hypertext system though it is passive, it is
not dynamic. Users can see information, cannot build upon it (unless
allowed like in Wikipedia). 

GNU Hyperbole and eev, Org, HTML, Texinfo are hypertext systems if
text is created with it. They are not as integrated.

Major facility that I need in each of those in Emacs is recognition or
indexing of available hyperlinks in a document and relational
hyperlink inserting:

- indexing of available hyperlinks in documents would mean to captures
  and record relations between the document and the hyperlink. That
  would require system of regular expression harvesting of all
  hyperlinks in a document so that such can be listed in separate
  piece of information. As this quickly separates the referenced links
  and provide ability for bidirectional link. A referenced document
  can know other documents referencing to it. Indexing functions would
  solve the proble that such information is not available. In similar
  way WWW search engines ind

- Relational hyperlink inserting would keep track of hyperlinks at
  moment they are inserted. Because of the nature of systems we have
  that requires users' attention. Would we build from beginning
  structural lists of available hyperlinks that would not need users'
  attention. Practically it would or should be "hooked" so that when
  user wish to insert a hyperlink the facility must be there to first:
  verify that hyperlink is indexed beforehand, and to remember that
  hyperlink is inserted into which document. Document A would have
  hyperlink to document B, but document B would know that document A
  has a hyperlink to it. Jumping from A to B is possible as usual, but
  jumping from B to A would be enabled as well.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2021-06-08 02:47]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > - The HTML and eww Hypertext is not an option for me, that
> >   could be only good for reporting, but not for dynamically
> >   bound list of functions to specific hyperlinks; One same
> >   link on my side can provide different target depending of
> >   the key or function invoked.
> 
> The web has been the king for decades, as for dynamic web
> there are tons of mature, established technologies, e.g.
> PHP (personal home page), Ajax, CGI (Central Gateway
> interface, for example C and MySQL) for old-schoolers,
> JavaScript 

Those are not related to Emacs, don't run in Emacs, but Emacs could
provide some of them like CGI. WWW technologies cannot do with
hypertext what works with Emacs.

For example a hyperlink in Emacs can have many of its attributes,
there is GNU Hyperbole, there is `eev' and Org and other systems. A
web browser cannot execute external programs on the system, Emacs
can. So I am researching and looking for  Emacs based hypertext system
solution little different then what I do with tabulated-list-mode

> you can do whatever with the web, except for Gopher maybe. Don't
> pick some arcane markup which no one else uses, use whatever
> everyone else is using only use it better, otherwise you'll become a
> desert-penguin pretty fast... try the Tamagotchi for emotional
> support.

There is slight misunderstanding, as "hypertext" is not equal to HTML
although HTML is hypertext. With WWW I cannot do what I can do with
Emacs or other programming language. There were Hypertext systems
before the HTML so much more powerful. I gave you the reference.

In HTML system, all what I can do is create a text with hyperlinks and
some programming. It is read-only, not dynamic. Remote user canot
change it (they can but not with built-in tools). Hyperlinks are
unidirectional. I need inherently bidirectional hyperlinks. So, HTML
and WWW is not what I mean, though some output can be done for WWW.

Let us say there is WWW Hyperlink to https://www.example.com stored in
the Dynamic Knowledge Repository. I can now send it to Joe, and
information about sending it to Joe, becomes a new hyperlink related
to https://www.example.com -- I can jump from https://www.example.com
to information that Joe received it by email, I can jump to Joe, from
Joe, I can jump to information about https://www.example.com. But WWW
is not the only hyperlink there, a hyperlink is reference to any piece
of information to which one can arrive from other piece of
information. 

Other example, Org text is piece of information, by inspecting
information about Joe, one could find 7 different Org texts to which
one can jump, then from those Org texts one could jump to WWW location
of the Org output (if such exists) or one could jump to PDF output
generated (if such exists) and one can see that PDF was sent by email
to Jane, David, and jump to David, and back to Joe.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> - Is there maybe well known other ways to dynamically create the
>   outline?

Maybe built-in hierarchy.el? It is also using
tabulated-list-mode:

;; Display: You can display a hierarchy as a tabulated list using
;; `hierarchy-tabulated-display' and as an expandable/foldable tree
;; using `hierarchy-convert-to-tree-widget'.  The
;; `hierarchy-labelfn-*' functions will help you display each item of
;; the hierarchy the way you want it.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Ideas on Hypertext systems in Emacs needed

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2021-08-30 12:37]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > - Is there maybe well known other ways to dynamically create the
> >   outline?
> 
> Maybe built-in hierarchy.el? It is also using
> tabulated-list-mode:
> 
> ;; Display: You can display a hierarchy as a tabulated list using
> ;; `hierarchy-tabulated-display' and as an expandable/foldable tree
> ;; using `hierarchy-convert-to-tree-widget'.  The
> ;; `hierarchy-labelfn-*' functions will help you display each item of
> ;; the hierarchy the way you want it.

Thanks Ihor, wow, the library is all time in Emacs and I did not know
about it.

I will experiment with it.

-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/