Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

Mhen I am in emacs org mode, it is very easy to write plain-text documents and

export them using latex to pdf.



But if I write a texinfo file, I cannot use emacs to easily export the document to

dvi, pdf, or html.  A capability in the menu in texinfo mode would be appreciated.



Lisa

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

When I am in emacs org mode, it is very easy to write plain-text documents and
export them using latex to pdf.



But if I write a texinfo file, I cannot use emacs to easily export the document to

dvi, pdf, or html.  A capability in the menu in texinfo mode would be appreciated.



Lisa

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 01:56:11 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Mhen I am in emacs org mode, it is very easy to write plain-text documents and
> export them using latex to pdf.
> 
> But if I write a texinfo file, I cannot use emacs to easily export the document to
> dvi, pdf, or html.  A capability in the menu in texinfo mode would be appreciated.

Texinfo documents are not plain text documents, so their typesetting
is more complex than just Org-style "export".  For that reason, a
project that supports producing printed manuals usually has a Makefile
with the corresponding settings and commands.  With such projects,
what you want to do is achieved by something like

  M-x compile RET make PDF RET

This will invoke Make to produce the printed manual.

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

I use the command 



texi2pdf myfile.texi



You mention 



M-x compile RET make PDF RET



Tried it only to get



-*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "~/documents/" -*-
Compilation started at Sat Jun 26 12:34:04

make myfile.pdf
make: Nothing to be done for 'myfile.pdf'.

Compilation finished at Sat Jun 26 12:34:04





From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 25/06/2021 08:34:35 Europe/Paris

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 01:56:11 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Mhen I am in emacs org mode, it is very easy to write plain-text documents and
> export them using latex to pdf.
> 
> But if I write a texinfo file, I cannot use emacs to easily export the document to
> dvi, pdf, or html.  A capability in the menu in texinfo mode would be appreciated.

Texinfo documents are not plain text documents, so their typesetting
is more complex than just Org-style "export". For that reason, a
project that supports producing printed manuals usually has a Makefile
with the corresponding settings and commands. With such projects,
what you want to do is achieved by something like

M-x compile RET make PDF RET

This will invoke Make to produce the printed manual.

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> M-x compile RET make PDF RET
>
> Tried it only to get
>
> -*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "~/documents/" -*-
> Compilation started at Sat Jun 26 12:34:04
>
> make myfile.pdf
> make: Nothing to be done for 'myfile.pdf'.

You can do for example

  (setq compile-command "make -j 4 -s -k ")
  (setq compilation-read-command nil)

Then if you want to compile Markdown setup that mode

  (require 'markdown-mode)
  (define-key markdown-mode-map "\C-c\C-c" #'compile)

Last you need a Makefile in that directory and that works the
way it always does, you have a bunch of commands there to,
I don't know, transform the Markdown perhaps into HTML or
whatever you want to do...

Done! Now you can edit the Markdown in an Emacs buffer, and
when you have made a change, hit C-c C-c and have it as HTML
as well!

Clever.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 02:36:02 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> I use the command 
> 
> texi2pdf myfile.texi
> 
> You mention 
> 
> M-x compile RET make PDF RET
> 
> Tried it only to get
> 
> -*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "~/documents/" -*-
> Compilation started at Sat Jun 26 12:34:04
> 
> make myfile.pdf
> make: Nothing to be done for 'myfile.pdf'.

Which means the file myfile.texi wasn't changed since myfile.pdf was
last produced.  Or maybe the Makefile you have in that directory has a
bug.

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

I do not have any makefile.  I only have a file and I was doing 



texi2pdf  myfile.texi



I want to be able to do the same thing using an emacs command.



From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 08:10:51 Europe/Paris

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 02:36:02 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> I use the command 
> 
> texi2pdf myfile.texi
> 
> You mention 
> 
> M-x compile RET make PDF RET
> 
> Tried it only to get
> 
> -*- mode: compilation; default-directory: "~/documents/" -*-
> Compilation started at Sat Jun 26 12:34:04
> 
> make myfile.pdf
> make: Nothing to be done for 'myfile.pdf'.

Which means the file myfile.texi wasn't changed since myfile.pdf was
last produced. Or maybe the Makefile you have in that directory has a
bug.

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 16:16:08 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> I do not have any makefile.  I only have a file and I was doing 
> 
> texi2pdf  myfile.texi
> 
> I want to be able to do the same thing using an emacs command.

If you don't want to create a Makefile, then you could define
compilation-command in the file-local variables section of
myfile.texi.

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

It is not that I do net want to use a makefile.  But I do not know what commands 

the makefile would need.



I could also try your compilation-command suggestion.  I could try all the options

possible and scrutinise tho various ways I can achieve what I want.  And I could learn

a few things, which I could use in future if I need to.



Thanks



From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 16:21:20 Europe/Paris

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 16:16:08 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> I do not have any makefile. I only have a file and I was doing 
> 
> texi2pdf myfile.texi
> 
> I want to be able to do the same thing using an emacs command.

If you don't want to create a Makefile, then you could define
compilation-command in the file-local variables section of
myfile.texi.

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:20:01 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> I could also try your compilation-command suggestion.

Yes, but please note that I made a typo: the variable is called
compile-command, not compilation-command.  Sorry about that.

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

What is easiest to do first ?   Could implement compilation-command and g et that to work first.



Currently, it does not matter to me the method used as long as I remove the necessity of having

to call the texi2pdf command on the command-line.  It would be far better if I can just call

a simple command in emacs itself whilst I am modifying my texinfo files.



From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 16:21:20 Europe/Paris

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 16:16:08 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> I do not have any makefile. I only have a file and I was doing 
> 
> texi2pdf myfile.texi
> 
> I want to be able to do the same thing using an emacs command.

If you don't want to create a Makefile, then you could define
compilation-command in the file-local variables section of
myfile.texi.

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

Ok, I'm all ears.


From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 17:24:31 Europe/Paris

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:20:01 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> I could also try your compilation-command suggestion.

Yes, but please note that I made a typo: the variable is called
compile-command, not compilation-command. Sorry about that.

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

Have done "C-h f compile-command" but did not give me anything.


From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 17:24:31 Europe/Paris

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:20:01 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> I could also try your compilation-command suggestion.

Yes, but please note that I made a typo: the variable is called
compile-command, not compilation-command. Sorry about that.

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:30:26 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Have done "C-h f compile-command" but did not give me anything.

It's a variable, not a function.  So use "C-h v".

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

It says



This variable may be risky if used as a file-local variable.



Perhaps this is something to be fixed?



Could the makefile be a better option?




From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 17:38:43 Europe/Paris

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:30:26 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Have done "C-h f compile-command" but did not give me anything.

It's a variable, not a function. So use "C-h v".

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:45:11 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> It says
> 
> This variable may be risky if used as a file-local variable.

It is not a risk if you yourself wrote the variable's value.

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

Ok, let's do it.  It also says one can use mode hooks to specify it in certain modes, like this:



I could use it for  texinfo-mode-hook



    (add-hook 'c-mode-hook
       (lambda ()
     (unless (or (file-exists-p "makefile")
             (file-exists-p "Makefile"))
           (setq-local compile-command
        (concat "make -k "
            (if buffer-file-name
              (shell-quote-argument
                (file-name-sans-extension buffer-file-name))))))))





From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 17:54:37 Europe/Paris

> From: lisa-asket@perso.be
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:45:11 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> It says
> 
> This variable may be risky if used as a file-local variable.

It is not a risk if you yourself wrote the variable's value.

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> I do not have any makefile. I only have a file and I was
> doing
>
> texi2pdf myfile.texi
>
> I want to be able to do the same thing using an
> emacs command.

You should have a Makefile for that, that way if nothing
happens, nothing needs to be happening. Making makefiles is
a basic skill to make, I mean to have. No excuses.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> It is not that I do net want to use a makefile. But I do not
> know what commands
>
> the makefile would need.

Try the commands in the shell first, if it works put it in the
Makefile, use `compile' from Emacs with the settings
I showed you.

The basic Makefile syntax is just a few basic building blocks
that still takes you a loong way...

  (setq compile-command "make -j 4 -s -k ")
  (setq compilation-read-command nil) ; [1]

The basic Makefile syntax is just a few basic building blocks
that still takes you a loong way...

[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/ide/compile-incal.el

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> to call the texi2pdf command on the command-line. It would
> be far better if I can just call

Well, the Makefile method is better and down the road it'll be
much faster as well, but quick access to/from the shell/Emacs
- that should be fast, also. Very fast.

"Advance too quickly, you catch up with death.
 But advance too slowly, death catches up with YOU."

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> Ok, let's do it. It also says one can use mode hooks to
> specify it in certain modes, like this:
>
> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook
>   (lambda ()
>     (unless (or (file-exists-p "makefile")
>                 (file-exists-p "Makefile"))
>       (setq-local compile-command
>          (concat "make -k "
>                  (if buffer-file-name
>                      (shell-quote-argument
>                       (file-name-sans-extension buffer-file-name))))))))

You don't need any of that because the `compile-command', e.g.
"make -j 4 -s -k " that can be the same for every mode or
programming language or formatting you do.

Also there's no need to look for a Makefile because it looks
in the same directory as the buffer for one and if there is
one, that's where it happens.

Time to step up your game :(

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

If you want mo to perform as well as others, you are looking for a disappointment.

Don't know anything about make.



If I do M-x compile and enter "make -j 4 -s -k" emacs complains with  



make -j 4 -s -k 
make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.






From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 20:03:00 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket wrote:

> Ok, let's do it. It also says one can use mode hooks to
> specify it in certain modes, like this:
>
> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook
> (lambda ()
> (unless (or (file-exists-p "makefile")
> (file-exists-p "Makefile"))
> (setq-local compile-command
> (concat "make -k "
> (if buffer-file-name
> (shell-quote-argument
> (file-name-sans-extension buffer-file-name))))))))

You don't need any of that because the `compile-command', e.g.
"make -j 4 -s -k " that can be the same for every mode or
programming language or formatting you do.

Also there's no need to look for a Makefile because it looks
in the same directory as the buffer for one and if there is
one, that's where it happens.

Time to step up your game :(

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Bruno Barbier]

lisa-asket@perso.be writes:

> If you want mo to perform as well as others, you are looking for a disappointment.
>
> Don't know anything about make.
>
>
>
> If I do M-x compile and enter "make -j 4 -s -k" emacs complains with  
>
>
>
> make -j 4 -s -k 
> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
>

You don't need 'make'. The 'compile' function accepts any shell command.


Just type:

   M-x compile

then, when prompted, enter:

   texi2pdf myfile.texi

If that works for you, you could follow Eli advice, and put the
following line, at the top of you file, to define the variable
'compile-command':

   -*-  compile-command: texi2pdf myfile.texi -*-
   
at the top of your file, so that you don't have to enter it manually
each time.

If you want to do this for every texinfo file, then, you may teach Emacs
to configure it for you, using a texinfo mode hook.


Bruno


>
>
>
>
>
> From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
> Date: 26/06/2021 20:03:00 Europe/Paris
>
> lisa-asket wrote:
>
>> Ok, let's do it. It also says one can use mode hooks to
>> specify it in certain modes, like this:
>>
>> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook
>> (lambda ()
>> (unless (or (file-exists-p "makefile")
>> (file-exists-p "Makefile"))
>> (setq-local compile-command
>> (concat "make -k "
>> (if buffer-file-name
>> (shell-quote-argument
>> (file-name-sans-extension buffer-file-name))))))))
>
> You don't need any of that because the `compile-command', e.g.
> "make -j 4 -s -k " that can be the same for every mode or
> programming language or formatting you do.
>
> Also there's no need to look for a Makefile because it looks
> in the same directory as the buffer for one and if there is
> one, that's where it happens.
>
> Time to step up your game :(
>
> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

Seems to work using



M-x compile
texi2pdf myfile.texi



But I cannot find the generated pdf file.


From: Bruno Barbier <brubar.cs@gmail.com>
To: lisa-asket@perso.be;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 21:37:30 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket@perso.be writes:

> If you want mo to perform as well as others, you are looking for a disappointment.
>
> Don't know anything about make.
>
>
>
> If I do M-x compile and enter "make -j 4 -s -k" emacs complains with  
>
>
>
> make -j 4 -s -k 
> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
>

You don't need 'make'. The 'compile' function accepts any shell command.


Just type:

M-x compile

then, when prompted, enter:

texi2pdf myfile.texi

If that works for you, you could follow Eli advice, and put the
following line, at the top of you file, to define the variable
'compile-command':

-*- compile-command: texi2pdf myfile.texi -*-

at the top of your file, so that you don't have to enter it manually
each time.

If you want to do this for every texinfo file, then, you may teach Emacs
to configure it for you, using a texinfo mode hook.


Bruno


>
>
>
>
>
> From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
> Date: 26/06/2021 20:03:00 Europe/Paris
>
> lisa-asket wrote:
>
>> Ok, let's do it. It also says one can use mode hooks to
>> specify it in certain modes, like this:
>>
>> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook
>> (lambda ()
>> (unless (or (file-exists-p "makefile")
>> (file-exists-p "Makefile"))
>> (setq-local compile-command
>> (concat "make -k "
>> (if buffer-file-name
>> (shell-quote-argument
>> (file-name-sans-extension buffer-file-name))))))))
>
> You don't need any of that because the `compile-command', e.g.
> "make -j 4 -s -k " that can be the same for every mode or
> programming language or formatting you do.
>
> Also there's no need to look for a Makefile because it looks
> in the same directory as the buffer for one and if there is
> one, that's where it happens.
>
> Time to step up your game :(
>
> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> Don't know anything about make.

Start there, it is super-simple. Anyone can do it but to
anyone who didn't do it, after it is done, it is
a huge improvement.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

I got it to work now.  Was looking in the wrong directory.  I can view the pdf file, which looks


as I would have expected to get by calling "texi2pdf myfile.texi" from the command line.



Want to try doing this for every texinfo file, by telling emacs using a texinfo mode hook.



So now, my task is to write a specific interactive function.



Thank you, would not have been able to do it by myself.




From: lisa-asket@perso.be
To: Bruno Barbier <brubar.cs@gmail.com>;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 21:38:46 Europe/Paris

Seems to work using

M-x compile
texi2pdf myfile.texi

But I cannot find the generated pdf file.

From: Bruno Barbier <brubar.cs@gmail.com>
To: lisa-asket@perso.be;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 21:37:30 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket@perso.be writes:

> If you want mo to perform as well as others, you are looking for a disappointment.
>
> Don't know anything about make.
>
>
>
> If I do M-x compile and enter "make -j 4 -s -k" emacs complains with  
>
>
>
> make -j 4 -s -k 
> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
>

You don't need 'make'. The 'compile' function accepts any shell command.


Just type:

M-x compile

then, when prompted, enter:

texi2pdf myfile.texi

If that works for you, you could follow Eli advice, and put the
following line, at the top of you file, to define the variable
'compile-command':

-*- compile-command: texi2pdf myfile.texi -*-

at the top of your file, so that you don't have to enter it manually
each time.

If you want to do this for every texinfo file, then, you may teach Emacs
to configure it for you, using a texinfo mode hook.


Bruno


>
>
>
>
>
> From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
> Date: 26/06/2021 20:03:00 Europe/Paris
>
> lisa-asket wrote:
>
>> Ok, let's do it. It also says one can use mode hooks to
>> specify it in certain modes, like this:
>>
>> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook
>> (lambda ()
>> (unless (or (file-exists-p "makefile")
>> (file-exists-p "Makefile"))
>> (setq-local compile-command
>> (concat "make -k "
>> (if buffer-file-name
>> (shell-quote-argument
>> (file-name-sans-extension buffer-file-name))))))))
>
> You don't need any of that because the `compile-command', e.g.
> "make -j 4 -s -k " that can be the same for every mode or
> programming language or formatting you do.
>
> Also there's no need to look for a Makefile because it looks
> in the same directory as the buffer for one and if there is
> one, that's where it happens.
>
> Time to step up your game :(
>
> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Bruno Barbier wrote:

> You don't need 'make'. The 'compile' function accepts any
> shell command.

You do need make, the shell-command poor-man's method will
only work for trivial examples and even for these a Makefile
is still much better in every sense.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Bruno Barbier]

lisa-asket@perso.be writes:

> Seems to work using
>
>
>
> M-x compile
> texi2pdf myfile.texi
>
>
>
> But I cannot find the generated pdf file.
>

Should be at the same place, as if you've entered "texi2pdf myfile.texi"
in a shell outside of emacs (or in a shell inside emacs).

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

It is not very helpful if you argue between yourselves.  Have tried it and it works.  It is not

a disaster when something does not work in some situation.  Although I would like to hear

about the makefile thing.  What bothers me is that I could run "texi2pdf myfile.texi" without

going through a makefile solution.  Why should I be bothered with makefiles because I want to

use emacs to generate my pdf file ?



Have seen people arguing at infinitum when someone asking questions in some mailing lists, 

and did not like any of that.



From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 21:57:06 Europe/Paris

Bruno Barbier wrote:

> You don't need 'make'. The 'compile' function accepts any
> shell command.

You do need make, the shell-command poor-man's method will
only work for trivial examples and even for these a Makefile
is still much better in every sense.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

Am working on making an elisp function to run the equivalent of



M-x compile <ret> texi2pdf myfile.texi <ret>



But do not know how to pass the file name.



(defun texi2pdf-file ()

  "TODO docstring"

  (interactive)


  (setq-local compile-command
          (concat "texi2pdf ")
)



From: lisa-asket@perso.be
To: lisa-asket@perso.be;
   Bruno Barbier <brubar.cs@gmail.com>;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 21:56:32 Europe/Paris

I got it to work now.  Was looking in the wrong directory.  I can view the pdf file, which looks


as I would have expected to get by calling "texi2pdf myfile.texi" from the command line.



Want to try doing this for every texinfo file, by telling emacs using a texinfo mode hook.



So now, my task is to write a specific interactive function.



Thank you, would not have been able to do it by myself.




From: lisa-asket@perso.be
To: Bruno Barbier <brubar.cs@gmail.com>;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 21:38:46 Europe/Paris

Seems to work using

M-x compile
texi2pdf myfile.texi

But I cannot find the generated pdf file.

From: Bruno Barbier <brubar.cs@gmail.com>
To: lisa-asket@perso.be;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 21:37:30 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket@perso.be writes:

> If you want mo to perform as well as others, you are looking for a disappointment.
>
> Don't know anything about make.
>
>
>
> If I do M-x compile and enter "make -j 4 -s -k" emacs complains with  
>
>
>
> make -j 4 -s -k 
> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
>

You don't need 'make'. The 'compile' function accepts any shell command.


Just type:

M-x compile

then, when prompted, enter:

texi2pdf myfile.texi

If that works for you, you could follow Eli advice, and put the
following line, at the top of you file, to define the variable
'compile-command':

-*- compile-command: texi2pdf myfile.texi -*-

at the top of your file, so that you don't have to enter it manually
each time.

If you want to do this for every texinfo file, then, you may teach Emacs
to configure it for you, using a texinfo mode hook.


Bruno


>
>
>
>
>
> From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
> Date: 26/06/2021 20:03:00 Europe/Paris
>
> lisa-asket wrote:
>
>> Ok, let's do it. It also says one can use mode hooks to
>> specify it in certain modes, like this:
>>
>> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook
>> (lambda ()
>> (unless (or (file-exists-p "makefile")
>> (file-exists-p "Makefile"))
>> (setq-local compile-command
>> (concat "make -k "
>> (if buffer-file-name
>> (shell-quote-argument
>> (file-name-sans-extension buffer-file-name))))))))
>
> You don't need any of that because the `compile-command', e.g.
> "make -j 4 -s -k " that can be the same for every mode or
> programming language or formatting you do.
>
> Also there's no need to look for a Makefile because it looks
> in the same directory as the buffer for one and if there is
> one, that's where it happens.
>
> Time to step up your game :(
>
> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

Started by making the fallowing elisp function



(defun texi2pdf-file ()
  "TODO docstring"

  (interactive)
  (setq-local compile-command
          (concat "texi2pdf " (buffer-file-name))))



But the function is not effective to make the pdf file.





From: Bruno Barbier <brubar.cs@gmail.com>
To: lisa-asket@perso.be;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 26/06/2021 22:02:59 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket@perso.be writes:

> Seems to work using
>
>
>
> M-x compile
> texi2pdf myfile.texi
>
>
>
> But I cannot find the generated pdf file.
>

Should be at the same place, as if you've entered "texi2pdf myfile.texi"
in a shell outside of emacs (or in a shell inside emacs).

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> going through a makefile solution. Why should I be bothered
> with makefiles because I want to use emacs to generate my
> pdf file ?

Here is a Makefile [1] that is used to turn a text file into
a PDF. To do that there is first an in-between step, to turn
the text into PostScript, then one turns that into PDF.

Remember the general syntax

  target: prerequisite
     command

other than that some special syntax:
  $< .. the left-most prerequisite
  $@ .. the target 

From a human point of view, there are just so many advantages
- try to figure them out as an exercise :) just kidding - but
from a computer point of view there is one advantage that is
maybe not obvious, namely, if there is a target already, and
none of prerequisite has changed since the last `compile'
command was issued, nothing happens! Nothing has changed since
it was last done, so why do it again?

Not that this, despite being slightly more advanced than your
use case, is still a very, very simple project/task, yet as
you see if you think and examine the file will realize there
are so many advantages already.

For a medium-sized project [2] or a BIG project, it is not
a matter of advantages anymore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to manage it
by issuing shell commands manually like you do!

Might as well get used to the right, which here is also the
good way, and you have a simple example to practice on ... but
even so, again, even really simple examples benefit from this.

[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/about/cv/cv.txt

[2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/Makefile

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> Started by making the fallowing elisp function
>
> (defun texi2pdf-file () ...
>
> But the function is not effective to make the pdf file.

You don't need to do any of that, all is done for you, it is
already there, working, and better.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 27/06/2021 00:20:56 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket wrote:

> going through a makefile solution. Why should I be bothered
> with makefiles because I want to use emacs to generate my
> pdf file ?

Here is a Makefile [1] that is used to turn a text file into
a PDF. To do that there is first an in-between step, to turn
the text into PostScript, then one turns that into PDF.

Remember the general syntax

target: prerequisite
command

other than that some special syntax:
$< .. the left-most prerequisite
$@ .. the target 

From a human point of view, there are just so many advantages
- try to figure them out as an exercise :) just kidding - but
from a computer point of view there is one advantage that is
maybe not obvious, namely, if there is a target already, and
none of prerequisite has changed since the last `compile'
command was issued, nothing happens! Nothing has changed since
it was last done, so why do it again?

Not that this, despite being slightly more advanced than your
use case, is still a very, very simple project/task, yet as
you see if you think and examine the file will realize there
are so many advantages already.

For a medium-sized project [2] or a BIG project, it is not
a matter of advantages anymore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to manage it
by issuing shell commands manually like you do!



* I recognise it is a mare organised way of doing things.


Might as well get used to the right, which here is also the
good way, and you have a simple example to practice on ... but
even so, again, even really simple examples benefit from this.



* Shall spend some time on writing a make file.  I could run the makefile

on the terminal, can I ?


[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/about/cv/cv.txt

[2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/Makefile

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

I managed to get it to work actually.  Why do you say it is already there ?

You have to input the commands myself if I do not use the function I defined

in the appropriate myfile.texi buffer.



From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 27/06/2021 00:22:40 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket wrote:

> Started by making the fallowing elisp function
>
> (defun texi2pdf-file () ...
>
> But the function is not effective to make the pdf file.

You don't need to do any of that, all is done for you, it is
already there, working, and better.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

Would require much more information than just.



target: prerequisite

command



A real example for doing texi2pdf would be crucial.



It is a shame I have to ask you what I should write, but I am all new to these things.

But somehow I learned to do some elisp. 



From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 27/06/2021 00:20:56 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket wrote:

> going through a makefile solution. Why should I be bothered
> with makefiles because I want to use emacs to generate my
> pdf file ?

Here is a Makefile [1] that is used to turn a text file into
a PDF. To do that there is first an in-between step, to turn
the text into PostScript, then one turns that into PDF.

Remember the general syntax

target: prerequisite
command

other than that some special syntax:
$< .. the left-most prerequisite
$@ .. the target 

From a human point of view, there are just so many advantages
- try to figure them out as an exercise :) just kidding - but
from a computer point of view there is one advantage that is
maybe not obvious, namely, if there is a target already, and
none of prerequisite has changed since the last `compile'
command was issued, nothing happens! Nothing has changed since
it was last done, so why do it again?

Not that this, despite being slightly more advanced than your
use case, is still a very, very simple project/task, yet as
you see if you think and examine the file will realize there
are so many advantages already.

For a medium-sized project [2] or a BIG project, it is not
a matter of advantages anymore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to manage it
by issuing shell commands manually like you do!

Might as well get used to the right, which here is also the
good way, and you have a simple example to practice on ... but
even so, again, even really simple examples benefit from this.

[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/about/cv/cv.txt

[2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/Makefile

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

This is useless but I wrote



%.pdf:
    @echo Making $@ in $(docdir)
    @ texi2pdf '$<'



From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 27/06/2021 00:20:56 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket wrote:

> going through a makefile solution. Why should I be bothered
> with makefiles because I want to use emacs to generate my
> pdf file ?

Here is a Makefile [1] that is used to turn a text file into
a PDF. To do that there is first an in-between step, to turn
the text into PostScript, then one turns that into PDF.

Remember the general syntax

target: prerequisite
command

other than that some special syntax:
$< .. the left-most prerequisite
$@ .. the target 

From a human point of view, there are just so many advantages
- try to figure them out as an exercise :) just kidding - but
from a computer point of view there is one advantage that is
maybe not obvious, namely, if there is a target already, and
none of prerequisite has changed since the last `compile'
command was issued, nothing happens! Nothing has changed since
it was last done, so why do it again?

Not that this, despite being slightly more advanced than your
use case, is still a very, very simple project/task, yet as
you see if you think and examine the file will realize there
are so many advantages already.

For a medium-sized project [2] or a BIG project, it is not
a matter of advantages anymore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to manage it
by issuing shell commands manually like you do!

Might as well get used to the right, which here is also the
good way, and you have a simple example to practice on ... but
even so, again, even really simple examples benefit from this.

[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/about/cv/cv.txt

[2] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/Makefile

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> * Shall spend some time on writing a make file. I could run
> the makefile
>
> on the terminal, can I ?

Yes, the file is called Makefile, you can type 'make' in the
same directory.

But ... if you you work on a file in an Emacs buffer an even
faster than doing that is just hitting for example C-c C-c or
some other keybinding for `compile'.

Then what happens next is also you get to a compilation buffer
with debug information. One shouldn't dwell on that because
too much debugging then better take a step back and rethink
things instead :)

>> [1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/about/XXXXX

Dammit, that wasn't the Makefile, here it is

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/about/cv/Makefile

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> I managed to get it to work actually. Why do you say it is
> already there ?

The GNU make and the Makefile system is

1) much better
2) already present

> You have to input the commands myself if I do not use the
> function I defined

Don't write Elisp instead of a Makefile. It is

1) argh
2) ...

Here is what the man page say for make(1):

 The make utility will determine automatically which pieces of
 a large program need to be recompiled, and issue the commands
 to recompile them. The manual describes the GNU
 implementation of make, which was written by Richard Stallman
 and Roland McGrath, and is currently maintained by Paul
 Smith. Our examples show C programs, since they are very
 common, but you can use make with any programming language
 whose compiler can be run with a shell command. In fact, make
 is not limited to programs. You can use it to describe any
 task where some files must be updated automatically from
 others whenever the others change.

That's right! It is like automation automated.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> Would require much more information than just.
>
> target: prerequisite
> command

No.

> A real example for doing texi2pdf would be crucial.

like this maybe?

name=ghost

texi=${name}.texi

pdf=${name}.pdf

all: ${pdf}

${pdf}: ${texi}
	texi2pdf $<

clear:
	rm -f ${pdf}

> It is a shame I have to ask you what I should write, but
> I am all new to these things.

Time to level up the attitude, no one or very few will do what
I just did around and issue like this and maybe I myself will
just do it a couple of more times or so ...

> But somehow I learned to do some elisp. 

Okay, but don't use it for this.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> [2021-06-27 01:10]:
>  You can use it to describe any task where some files must be
>  updated automatically from others whenever the others change.

That principle I have to apply to database objects as to track the
last modification date and generate new PDFs only when the database
object's modified time changed in relation to the generated PDF.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

In reality there is no valid reason not to use elisp.  Makefiles are just an obsession for some developers,

just as databases are for others.




From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 27/06/2021 07:07:14 Europe/Paris

lisa-asket wrote:

> I managed to get it to work actually. Why do you say it is
> already there ?

The GNU make and the Makefile system is

1) much better
2) already present

> You have to input the commands myself if I do not use the
> function I defined

Don't write Elisp instead of a Makefile. It is

1) argh
2) ...

Here is what the man page say for make(1):

The make utility will determine automatically which pieces of
a large program need to be recompiled, and issue the commands
to recompile them. The manual describes the GNU
implementation of make, which was written by Richard Stallman
and Roland McGrath, and is currently maintained by Paul
Smith. Our examples show C programs, since they are very
common, but you can use make with any programming language
whose compiler can be run with a shell command. In fact, make
is not limited to programs. You can use it to describe any
task where some files must be updated automatically from
others whenever the others change.

That's right! It is like automation automated.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Jean Louis]

* lisa-asket@perso.be <lisa-asket@perso.be> [2021-06-28 12:44]:
> In reality there is no valid reason not to use elisp.

No valid reason NOT to use Emacs Lisp. Well, there are many valid
reasons for variety of people one important one would be the
familiarity to a programming language. No matter what is technical
advantage the familiarity is number one factor for people to use this
or that programming language. A Perl programmer is familiar with its
tools and would not like to switch to Emacs Lisp.

Majority of people don't use Emacs Lisp for nothing else but improving
the Emacs as editor. Though it is full programming language that can
do so much. Yesterday I was writing the double opt-in in Emacs Lisp
that will serve as CGI program on websites. Parameters for script may
be configured within Emacs. Great.

> Makefiles are just an obsession for some developers.

Makefiles solve complex problems. There are various Make related
solutions in free software. You need not use any of them and you may
cherry-pick some of them. That it is obsession I would not say, unless
you have made a large interview with developers and identified their
groups and backgrounds. Statement is too general. Opinion is somehow
shallow. 

> just as databases are for others.

Database as obsession? The database helps me NOT to think about the
database, structures, where is what piece of information. When I am
hard coding or writing information in some data loaded into Emacs Lisp
then I have to think of it, which list did I make, which key, value,
alist, and so on. Pieces of information are not related to each
other. Database integrates all pieces of information and thus helps
minimize programming efforts down to almot 1% of what otherwise would
be needed.

This is my Org agenda alternative in just few lines:

(defun hyperscope-hyperdocuments-agenda ()
  (interactive)
  (hyperscope-voice 44)
  ;;(rcd-speak "Hyperscope agenda")
  (let ((sql "SELECT DISTINCT timestamps_hlinks, timestamptypes_name,
              to_char(timestamps_timestamp::date, 'Day'), timestamps_timestamp::date,
              hyobjects_name, actionstatuses_name
              FROM hyobjects, timestamps, timestamptypes, actionstatuses
              WHERE hyobjects_id = timestamps_hlinks
              AND timestamptypes_id = timestamps_timestamptypes
              AND timestamptypes_inagenda IS TRUE
              AND actionstatuses_id = hyobjects_actionstatuses
              AND actionstatuses_actionstatustypes != 3
              ORDER BY timestamps_timestamp DESC")
	(highlights (append '("ACTION") (hyperscope-timestamp-list t)))
	(buffer-name "Hyperscope Agenda"))
    (kill-matching-buffers buffer-name t t)
    (rcd-db-sql-report buffer-name sql [("ID" 5 t) ("Type" 10 t) ("Day" 9 t) ("Timestamp" 10 t) ("Hyperdocument" 55) ("Action" 10 t)] "hyobjects" '("Timestamp" . t) 'hyperscope-hyperdocuments-agenda highlights)))

Of course there are more lines behind it, but not more than maybe 4-5
times that much, few lines for database table definition and
`rcd-db-sql-report', key bindings, etc. that's about it.

Obsession...

* Overview of noun obsession

The noun obsession has 2 senses (no senses from tagged texts)
1. compulsion, obsession -- (an irrational motive for performing trivial or repetitive actions, even against your will; "her compulsion to wash her hands repeatedly")
2. obsession, fixation -- (an unhealthy and compulsive preoccupation with something or someone)

Makefiles - are necessity, I cannot see obsession. It is part of
software history and today there are different build tools. People use
different.

When something is irrational I would say it is obsession. For that
reason I gave up from Org mode. As the deeper one goes one can find
plethora of irrational love to a tool that does not make it right not
closely right as compared to some other tools made for the similar
purpose. Here I refer to tasks handling, planning, rather then writing
the outline. Org mode is a good outline, bad task planner
application. Surely I have recognized that I have been introduced to
it due to hype around it, back in 2016, but somewhere in 2019, it was
unbearable and I have switched in 2020 to complete different
system. The Org mode would like to be a database, but it is not and
will never be. The amount of coding given to Org mode is great number
lines that are trying to replace otherwise in other software parts
some very common issues. One example could be the GDBM, would Emacs
have module or bindings to GDBM database it would solve so many
problems that Org mode is trying to solve. In general things could get
so much faster, but we don't have that. I have asked Sergey maintainer
of GDBM to include it at least as module.

Databases don't fall into obsession category (except for some people),
they are rather practical minimization of programming efforts.

Take for example the Emacs configuration file, it could be stored in
such built-in database, and at all times also edited as plain
text. The GDBM is a key value database, it would be trivial to make a
special mode to edit the database directly and visually straight from
editor.

My package for hash editing is an example. Edit hash visually, send it
to other people, exchange. 

Emacs Lisp package `rcd-hash-edit.el`
https://hyperscope.link/3/7/6/6/1/Emacs-Lisp-package-rcd-hash-edit-37661.html

There are some packages that promise "persistent" data structures,
persistent scratch buffer, persistent variables, and so on. By having
database hooks such issues are easily solved.

Database is for example handling complex structures of people's
records. It would be oversimplified if I would say it is "address
book" as it is not. Complex relations between people from one to each
other, relatives, friends, business partners, introducers, their
related SMS messages, emails, faxes, letters, directories, files,
images, offers, quotations, invoices, you name it. It lessens or
minimizes programming times. Trying to implement it in Emacs is not a
scalable solution. GNU Hyperbole address book or BBDB or Org contacts,
nothing nearly comes close to what database offers to advance user.

But if it is obsession? I don't think so. It is practical tool.

Emacs can be obsession, but I am not using it as because of obsession
but because it is useful, practical. People write in Emacs. Writing is
one of most important intellectual activities. It influences society.

Majority of Emacs users are not obsessed. They are
enthusiasts. Enthusiasm is lively interest in something.

When it comes to handling of mission critical real time information
maybe the attempt to do it with Emacs Lisp could be considered
obsession as maybe there are other programming languages more suitable
for different types of tasks.

-- 
Jean

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Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: lisa-asket@perso.be
Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
Date: 28/06/2021 16:02:13 Europe/Paris
Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu

* lisa-asket@perso.be <lisa-asket@perso.be> [2021-06-28 12:44]:
> In reality there is no valid reason not to use elisp.

No valid reason NOT to use Emacs Lisp. Well, there are many valid
reasons for variety of people one important one would be the
familiarity to a programming language. No matter what is technical
advantage the familiarity is number one factor for people to use this
or that programming language. A Perl programmer is familiar with its
tools and would not like to switch to Emacs Lisp.

Majority of people don't use Emacs Lisp for nothing else but improving
the Emacs as editor. Though it is full programming language that can
do so much. Yesterday I was writing the double opt-in in Emacs Lisp
that will serve as CGI program on websites. Parameters for script may
be configured within Emacs. Great.

> Makefiles are just an obsession for some developers.

Makefiles solve complex problems. There are various Make related
solutions in free software. You need not use any of them and you may
cherry-pick some of them. That it is obsession I would not say, unless
you have made a large interview with developers and identified their
groups and backgrounds. Statement is too general. Opinion is somehow
shallow. 

I don't have complex problems.

> just as databases are for others.

Database as obsession? The database helps me NOT to think about the
database, structures, where is what piece of information. When I am
hard coding or writing information in some data loaded into Emacs Lisp
then I have to think of it, which list did I make, which key, value,
alist, and so on. Pieces of information are not related to each
other. Database integrates all pieces of information and thus helps
minimize programming efforts down to almot 1% of what otherwise would
be needed.

Many times I just need a small list, text based.

This is my Org agenda alternative in just few lines:

(defun hyperscope-hyperdocuments-agenda ()
(interactive)
(hyperscope-voice 44)
;;(rcd-speak "Hyperscope agenda")
(let ((sql "SELECT DISTINCT timestamps_hlinks, timestamptypes_name,
to_char(timestamps_timestamp::date, 'Day'), timestamps_timestamp::date,
hyobjects_name, actionstatuses_name
FROM hyobjects, timestamps, timestamptypes, actionstatuses
WHERE hyobjects_id = timestamps_hlinks
AND timestamptypes_id = timestamps_timestamptypes
AND timestamptypes_inagenda IS TRUE
AND actionstatuses_id = hyobjects_actionstatuses
AND actionstatuses_actionstatustypes != 3
ORDER BY timestamps_timestamp DESC")
(highlights (append '("ACTION") (hyperscope-timestamp-list t)))
(buffer-name "Hyperscope Agenda"))
(kill-matching-buffers buffer-name t t)
(rcd-db-sql-report buffer-name sql [("ID" 5 t) ("Type" 10 t) ("Day" 9 t) ("Timestamp" 10 t) ("Hyperdocument" 55) ("Action" 10 t)] "hyobjects" '("Timestamp" . t) 'hyperscope-hyperdocuments-agenda highlights)))

Of course there are more lines behind it, but not more than maybe 4-5
times that much, few lines for database table definition and
`rcd-db-sql-report', key bindings, etc. that's about it.

Obsession...

* Overview of noun obsession

The noun obsession has 2 senses (no senses from tagged texts)
1. compulsion, obsession -- (an irrational motive for performing trivial or repetitive actions, even against your will; "her compulsion to wash her hands repeatedly")
2. obsession, fixation -- (an unhealthy and compulsive preoccupation with something or someone)

Makefiles - are necessity, I cannot see obsession. It is part of
software history and today there are different build tools. People use
different.

When something is irrational I would say it is obsession. For that
reason I gave up from Org mode. As the deeper one goes one can find
plethora of irrational love to a tool that does not make it right not
closely right as compared to some other tools made for the similar
purpose. Here I refer to tasks handling, planning, rather then writing
the outline. Org mode is a good outline, bad task planner
application. Surely I have recognized that I have been introduced to
it due to hype around it, back in 2016, but somewhere in 2019, it was
unbearable and I have switched in 2020 to complete different
system. The Org mode would like to be a database, but it is not and
will never be. The amount of coding given to Org mode is great number
lines that are trying to replace otherwise in other software parts
some very common issues. One example could be the GDBM, would Emacs
have module or bindings to GDBM database it would solve so many
problems that Org mode is trying to solve. In general things could get
so much faster, but we don't have that. I have asked Sergey maintainer
of GDBM to include it at least as module.

Databases don't fall into obsession category (except for some people),
they are rather practical minimization of programming efforts.

Take for example the Emacs configuration file, it could be stored in
such built-in database, and at all times also edited as plain
text. The GDBM is a key value database, it would be trivial to make a
special mode to edit the database directly and visually straight from
editor.

My package for hash editing is an example. Edit hash visually, send it
to other people, exchange. 

Emacs Lisp package `rcd-hash-edit.el`
https://hyperscope.link/3/7/6/6/1/Emacs-Lisp-package-rcd-hash-edit-37661.html

There are some packages that promise "persistent" data structures,
persistent scratch buffer, persistent variables, and so on. By having
database hooks such issues are easily solved.

Database is for example handling complex structures of people's
records. It would be oversimplified if I would say it is "address
book" as it is not. Complex relations between people from one to each
other, relatives, friends, business partners, introducers, their
related SMS messages, emails, faxes, letters, directories, files,
images, offers, quotations, invoices, you name it. It lessens or
minimizes programming times. Trying to implement it in Emacs is not a
scalable solution. GNU Hyperbole address book or BBDB or Org contacts,
nothing nearly comes close to what database offers to advance user.

I wonder what Edgar Hoover used.

But if it is obsession? I don't think so. It is practical tool.

Emacs can be obsession, but I am not using it as because of obsession
but because it is useful, practical. People write in Emacs. Writing is
one of most important intellectual activities. It influences society.

Majority of Emacs users are not obsessed. They are
enthusiasts. Enthusiasm is lively interest in something.

When it comes to handling of mission critical real time information
maybe the attempt to do it with Emacs Lisp could be considered
obsession as maybe there are other programming languages more suitable
for different types of tasks.

I am very pragmatic.  Jeff Bezos thinks going to mars is a mission critical 
problem.  I pity him.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> In reality there is no valid reason not to use elisp.
>
> No valid reason NOT to use Emacs Lisp. Well, there are many
> valid reasons for variety of people one important one would
> be the familiarity to a programming language.

GNU make is written in C but that's not where the strength
lies, rather it's in the cleverness and practicality of the
solution itself.

BTW I'm pretty sure someone wrote or tried to write something
similar in Lisp. That would be very possible if one felt the
need to do that.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[lisa-asket]

>From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
>To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html
>Date: 30/06/2021 17:36:17 Europe/Paris

>Jean Louis wrote:

>>>> In reality there is no valid reason not to use elisp.
>>
>> No valid reason NOT to use Emacs Lisp. Well, there are many
>> valid reasons for variety of people one important one would
>> be the familiarity to a programming language.



Have came to agree that there can be valid reasons.  But I got a suggestion

on using emacs which gets the job done and which was pleasant to me.



Have also learned to use `make` a little bit, which is not bad.

I customarily try different ways.



>GNU make is written in C but that's not where the strength
>lies, rather it's in the cleverness and practicality of the
>solution itself.

>BTW I'm pretty sure someone wrote or tried to write something
>similar in Lisp. That would be very possible if one felt the
>need to do that.

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu> [2021-06-30 11:36]:
> BTW I'm pretty sure someone wrote or tried to write something
> similar in Lisp. That would be very possible if one felt the
> need to do that.

Overlord is CL build system.

There are today many in various languages, haskel-shake, ninja. etc.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

lisa-asket wrote:

> Have came to agree that there can be valid reasons.  But
> I got a suggestion on using emacs which gets the job done

You will use Emacs both when writing the source and writing
the Makefile so there will be enough of Emacs, don't worry.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> BTW I'm pretty sure someone wrote or tried to write
>> something similar in Lisp. That would be very possible if
>> one felt the need to do that.
>
> Overlord is CL build system.
>
> There are today many in various languages, haskel-shake,
> ninja. etc.

Overlord? Sounds scary...

Anyway the range of build systems available should be taken as
an indicator how simple-but-still-so-useful they are, not that
there is any one persistant problem, that never gets solved...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Andreas Eder]

On Mi 30 Jun 2021 at 17:36, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:

> BTW I'm pretty sure someone wrote or tried to write something
> similar in Lisp.

Well, yes, of course.
There is asdf or defsystem for common lisp.

'Andreas

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Andreas Eder wrote:

>> BTW I'm pretty sure someone wrote or tried to write
>> something similar in Lisp.
>
> Well, yes, of course. There is asdf or defsystem for
> common lisp.

Hm, for CL or in CL? Or both? As pointed out here and in the
GNU make(1) man page, you can use it with any programming
language and sometimes it doesn't even have to be programming.
(GNU make itself is written in C.)

In the Debian repos there is a package called cl-asdf, that
must be it. Clever name: Another System Definition Facility.
No one wrote a sequel (fork) and called it cl-jkl; tho so far,
what I can see...

defsystem isn't in the Debian repos but that doesn't mean it
isn't good.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html

[2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE]

On 2021-07-04 at 18:01:23 +0200,
Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:

> In the Debian repos there is a package called cl-asdf, that must be
> it. Clever name: Another System Definition Facility.  No one wrote a
> sequel (fork) and called it cl-jkl; tho so far, what I can see...

That might be the funniest off-by-one error I've ever seen.

See also <https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/uiop.html>.