Leaving Freenode behind

Leaving Freenode behind

[Stefan Kangas]

As you may have heard, the Freenode IRC network has been taken over by
a hostile corporate entity.[1][2]  The #emacs community has already
moved.[3]

I suggest we stop promoting it in Emacs, and instead promote the
community run Libera Chat.[4]  This would mean removing most
references and links to Freenode in our sources and documentation.

Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
ahead and make the necessary changes.

Footnotes:
[1] https://www.kline.sh/
[2] https://fuchsnet.ch/privat/fn-resign-letter.txt
[3] https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsChannel#h5o-9
[4] https://libera.chat/

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
> ahead and make the necessary changes.

This is bug#49004 -- I thought Amin had already already pushed these
changes, but I guess not?

Amin?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> [2021-06-21 23:26]:
> As you may have heard, the Freenode IRC network has been taken over by
> a hostile corporate entity.[1][2]  The #emacs community has already
> moved.[3]
> 
> I suggest we stop promoting it in Emacs, and instead promote the
> community run Libera Chat.[4]  This would mean removing most
> references and links to Freenode in our sources and documentation.
> 
> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
> ahead and make the necessary changes.

Maybe you have to research that subject better. What you mention as
"hostile corporate entity" is the same entity supporting and
organizing money for Freenode to exist for years. You made rather
harsh statement IMHO.

How I see it, their drama does not belong to emacs-devel.

I also think that everybody is free to use any service and emacs-devel
should not promote neither this or that network as being better or
invalidate a network as being hostile.

Make a channel wherever you wish and let people choose without
emotional wars.

I am surprised how you people start acting as judges where there is no
case.

Remember that the "hostile entity" never changed its attitude towards
support of the free software.

Instead of saying "thanks" for all of the years, you spread
misinformation here.

Btw, there are 19200 users... does that mean you are dropping people
for mis-judgment?

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The GNU Project is moving its IRC channels to Libera, so it would be good
good to adjust Emacs to this.

I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
"community-run" might be misleading.

That is not a criticism of Libera, though.  In fact, Freenode has been
a company all along, including when it was good to use.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Stefan Kangas]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> "community-run" might be misleading.

This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.

Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
bylaws".[1]

Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.

Footnotes:
[1] https://libera.chat/about

Leaving Freenode behind

[Christopher Dimech]

It is unfortunate to think that the moment one markets something,
then it is corrupt.  There is nothing wrong with a business or an
industry.  Business means that something that someone needs, someone
decides to provide.  As long as it is a legitimate business and people
are paying their taxes.  Of course for a cost, because if it needs to be
sustained, there has to be a cost.  

Till people give up this attitude, free software will not spread
across.  Free software must go to every village if the urban people
pay for it.  That is my mission and I will take it there.



> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 4:35 PM
> From: "Stefan Kangas" <stefan@marxist.se>
> To: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: "Emacs developers" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Leaving Freenode behind
>
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> > "community-run" might be misleading.
> 
> This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
> with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
> bylaws".[1]
> 
> Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
> number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
> association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
> not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
> expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
> controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.
> 
> Footnotes:
> [1] https://libera.chat/about
> 
>

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> [2021-06-22 08:15]:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> > "community-run" might be misleading.
> 
> This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
> with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
> bylaws".[1]
> 
> Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
> number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
> association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
> not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
> expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
> controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.
> 
> Footnotes:
> [1] https://libera.chat/about

When speaking of Swedish companies, have registered quite a few of
such for our clients. They are all registered with Bolagsverket.se. 

What you wish to say is that it is a non-profit type of an entity.
You mix the general term "company" to be only the company with
shareholders or members with shares.

In many countries "company" is used for any kind of type of the
entity, including for a partnership, including for non-incorporated
associations and so on. So it is in Sweden. In fact, when you wish to
search for a any type of a company you are offered label that includes
the word "company". 

Even if a non-profit is named "non-profit" the only difference is that
profits are not distributed as dividends to shareholders. Non-profit
though can pay very high salaries to its board, employees and hire
outside companies where money may go. Everything else if anything
remains, is used for re-investing into non-profit purposes.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2021-06-22 09:40]:
> It is unfortunate to think that the moment one markets something,
> then it is corrupt.  There is nothing wrong with a business or an
> industry.  Business means that something that someone needs, someone
> decides to provide.  As long as it is a legitimate business and people
> are paying their taxes.  Of course for a cost, because if it needs to be
> sustained, there has to be a cost.  
> 
> Till people give up this attitude, free software will not spread
> across.  Free software must go to every village if the urban people
> pay for it.  That is my mission and I will take it there.

What you don't see is that free software WAS always one or the other
business. There is nothing wrong and was never wrong in selling free
software. That is how I found it, I have paid 90 Deutschmarks in
Buchhandlung under Bahnhof in Stuttgart for the "Red Hat Linux" book
with the CDs attached. That was in 1999. All my contacts at the time
were with the companies selling free software on CDs. It was never in
my mind a question that such would be "free". What was good with it is
that license was permissive and I could buy one time and use it many
times. 

So many times I have purchased Free GNU/Linux variations of OS-es in
magazines or with books. In fact I used Internet so little, it took me
few years to figure out that I could just download software. Until
then I have been installing it from paid CDs.

Many companies are profiting on free software. It was since the
inception of GNU with kernel Linux that it was sold and sold over and
over again.

How do you mean: free software will not spread? It runs now the
majority of Internet, people pay for VPS-es, it is just everywhere,
well spread.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Leaving Freenode behind

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 8:48 AM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Stefan Kangas" <stefan@marxist.se>, "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>, emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Leaving Freenode behind
>
> * Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2021-06-22 09:40]:
> > It is unfortunate to think that the moment one markets something,
> > then it is corrupt.  There is nothing wrong with a business or an
> > industry.  Business means that something that someone needs, someone
> > decides to provide.  As long as it is a legitimate business and people
> > are paying their taxes.  Of course for a cost, because if it needs to be
> > sustained, there has to be a cost.
> >
> > Till people give up this attitude, free software will not spread
> > across.  Free software must go to every village if the urban people
> > pay for it.  That is my mission and I will take it there.
>
> What you don't see is that free software WAS always one or the other
> business. There is nothing wrong and was never wrong in selling free
> software. That is how I found it, I have paid 90 Deutschmarks in
> Buchhandlung under Bahnhof in Stuttgart for the "Red Hat Linux" book
> with the CDs attached. That was in 1999. All my contacts at the time
> were with the companies selling free software on CDs. It was never in
> my mind a question that such would be "free". What was good with it is
> that license was permissive and I could buy one time and use it many
> times.
>
> So many times I have purchased Free GNU/Linux variations of OS-es in
> magazines or with books. In fact I used Internet so little, it took me
> few years to figure out that I could just download software. Until
> then I have been installing it from paid CDs.

I remember that time well.  That's how it was.

> Many companies are profiting on free software. It was since the
> inception of GNU with kernel Linux that it was sold and sold over and
> over again.
>
> How do you mean: free software will not spread? It runs now the
> majority of Internet, people pay for VPS-es, it is just everywhere,
> well spread.

Because the non-profit obsession is basically a dislike of those who are
successful.

> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
>

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2021-06-23 00:10]:
> > How do you mean: free software will not spread? It runs now the
> > majority of Internet, people pay for VPS-es, it is just everywhere,
> > well spread.
> 
> Because the non-profit obsession is basically a dislike of those who are
> successful.

I cannot agree as I worked in many non-profits. It is not about
disliking others rather the difference in motivation. I never have
seen anybody in a non-profit disliking people or members who are
owners of a company with profit. In fact, those businessman were
respected for their deeds.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Leaving Freenode behind

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 5:28 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Stefan Kangas" <stefan@marxist.se>, emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Leaving Freenode behind
>
> * Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2021-06-23 00:10]:
> > > How do you mean: free software will not spread? It runs now the
> > > majority of Internet, people pay for VPS-es, it is just everywhere,
> > > well spread.
> > 
> > Because the non-profit obsession is basically a dislike of those who are
> > successful.
> 
> I cannot agree as I worked in many non-profits. It is not about
> disliking others rather the difference in motivation. I never have
> seen anybody in a non-profit disliking people or members who are
> owners of a company with profit. In fact, those businessman were
> respected for their deeds.

You are correct.  It is not about non-profits disliking business.
It is about those people who only value non-profit.

It’s not hard to start a nonprofit. The barriers to entry is pretty
low.  It costs a few hundred dollars and a few hours. But then what?
Running a nonprofit and growing it to a size where it can effectively
serve something takes resources. 

I know what you're thinking. You're looking at the amount of
money that's being raised by organizations that are fighting to
protect rights and freedoms threatened in the current political
climate. Surely your idea will be worthy of some of these
donations. Yes, it's true that donating has become a thing. And
it has significantly benefited a handful of organizations. But
those organizations have some infrastructure already in place to
be able to handle increased demand.

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2021-06-23 23:13]:
> You are correct.  It is not about non-profits disliking business.
> It is about those people who only value non-profit.

I don't know such people. 

What I know from experience is that non-profit organizations always
work hand in hand with profit organizations. Especially for the reason
that money usually comes from one to other and each party
benefits. Non-profit gets the money or other values and profit one
gets tax deductions. That is how it is in Germany and US and other
countries. Condition is that non-profit is recognized by tax
authorities as having public interest.

> It’s not hard to start a nonprofit. The barriers to entry is pretty
> low.  It costs a few hundred dollars and a few hours. But then what?
> Running a nonprofit and growing it to a size where it can effectively
> serve something takes resources. 

Of course, I should know that as being a corporate service provider
for last 19 years. Though in Germay it is considerably harder, but we
do it even remotely. They use the middle ages notary system with few
other countries in Europe.

If anybody considers donating to non-profit one should consider maybe
doing a direct contribution to social aspect. Often it will be more
valuable.

There are those which distribute majority of values for non-profit
purposes:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/20-incredible-charities-that-give-99-of-the-money-they-get-to-the-actual-cause-2017-12-28

Then there are those which distribute just 30% - 40% for non-profit
purposes:
https://moneyinc.com/worst-charities-you-shouldnt-be-donating-to/

So that is what I tell you, while non-profit is designated
"non-profit" in many sectors of its activities they may be actually
profit organization. IRS would ask for taxes for any activity that is
not charity activity. For any income to its directors beyond or within
charity activities they anyway have to pay taxes. You see? It is just
that purpose is different. Profits are there. When we say "non-profit"
it only points out to structure of the organization, to its main
purposes. But profits are there and should be, that is in other
context. Charity has to make money somehow. 

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Leaving Freenode behind

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 9:03 AM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Stefan Kangas" <stefan@marxist.se>, emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Leaving Freenode behind
>
> * Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2021-06-23 23:13]:
> > You are correct.  It is not about non-profits disliking business.
> > It is about those people who only value non-profit.
> 
> I don't know such people. 

We have different experiences.
 
> What I know from experience is that non-profit organizations always
> work hand in hand with profit organizations. Especially for the reason
> that money usually comes from one to other and each party
> benefits. Non-profit gets the money or other values and profit one
> gets tax deductions. That is how it is in Germany and US and other
> countries. Condition is that non-profit is recognized by tax
> authorities as having public interest.

That's how things should be.  I am not interested in non-profit myself.
 
> > It’s not hard to start a nonprofit. The barriers to entry is pretty
> > low.  It costs a few hundred dollars and a few hours. But then what?
> > Running a nonprofit and growing it to a size where it can effectively
> > serve something takes resources. 
> 
> Of course, I should know that as being a corporate service provider
> for last 19 years. Though in Germay it is considerably harder, but we
> do it even remotely. They use the middle ages notary system with few
> other countries in Europe.

Never worked seriously is Germany myself.
 
> If anybody considers donating to non-profit one should consider maybe
> doing a direct contribution to social aspect. Often it will be more
> valuable.
> 
> There are those which distribute majority of values for non-profit
> purposes:
> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/20-incredible-charities-that-give-99-of-the-money-they-get-to-the-actual-cause-2017-12-28
> 
> Then there are those which distribute just 30% - 40% for non-profit
> purposes:
> https://moneyinc.com/worst-charities-you-shouldnt-be-donating-to/
> 
> So that is what I tell you, while non-profit is designated
> "non-profit" in many sectors of its activities they may be actually
> profit organization. IRS would ask for taxes for any activity that is
> not charity activity. For any income to its directors beyond or within
> charity activities they anyway have to pay taxes. You see? It is just
> that purpose is different. Profits are there. When we say "non-profit"
> it only points out to structure of the organization, to its main
> purposes. But profits are there and should be, that is in other
> context. Charity has to make money somehow. 

Hat off to that.
 
> -- 
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
>

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
  > > "community-run" might be misleading.

  > This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.

  > Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
  > with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
  > bylaws".[1]

I stand corrected.

However, I continue to recall that Freenode has been a company for
many years, and operated acceptably until very recently.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2021-06-24 02:28]:
> That's how things should be.  I am not interested in non-profit
> myself.

I have personal humanitarian projects such as the school in Uganda. I
got permission to use it, 200-400 children need it. I know what it
means for people who would otherwise get drunk without school and get
into problems.

Renovation of the school is not more than US $2,000 -- ask your
friends to help.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Amin Bandali]

Hi Lars, all,

Lars Ingebrigtsen writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:
>
>> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
>> ahead and make the necessary changes.
>
> This is bug#49004 -- I thought Amin had already already pushed these
> changes, but I guess not?
>
> Amin?

Indeed, that's bug#49004, but I hadn't gotten a chance to make the
small tweaks that I'd wanted.  I did that a bit earlier tonight, and
pushed it to 'emacs-27' and then merged it into 'master' as well.