From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Using unmaintained plugins Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 09:35:06 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87o8ea9376.fsf@mbork.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16164"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0.6 (2021-03-06) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Bithov Vinu Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 20 08:39:56 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lYk3A-00045s-I7 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:39:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58738 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYk39-0007jH-Lk for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 02:39:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54036) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYk23-0007ie-Ks for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 02:38:47 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38225) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYk1w-0003rq-Ni for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 02:38:47 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.57]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000022301.00000000607E76ED.00005233; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 23:38:36 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Bithov Vinu , Marcin Borkowski , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:129087 Archived-At: * Bithov Vinu [2021-04-19 23:17]: > I will most certainly look into the book you referred - as soon as I > get through my current backlog :) I am glad, just contact me privately I will dispatch the PDF> > I'm not certain that you understand what the Supermemo method is. It > lies on the following principles: > 1) memory decays at a predictable, rapid rate > 2) review reduces the rate of forgetting > 3) review at too early or late a time results in excess repetitions or > forgetting of knowledge respectively I cannot find myself in none of those subjects. My memory never decays. Please note that scientists have never proven where is human memory stored, so if this cannot be proven scientifically they also cannot prove that it decays. If you don't know where is something it is hard to say that something is not any more there. There are many reasons why memory can be blocked, one of reasons is trauma, drugs, accidents, and so on, but memore is always there just may not be easily accessible. When problems or obstacles are solved then memory may be accessed. Today my memory is better than before few years, better than before a decade or few decades. Some of abusive scientists researched which parts of brain have to be destroyed for memory not to be accessible, but that kind of research does not prove where is memory, it only proves that when some human parts are destroyed it is hard to access it. According to calculations, there is not enough space in human body to store the memory we record. It is similar to CPU and memory, if one destroys the keyboard already or monitor, memory cannot be accessed, but chip remains somewhere in existence. Especially me, who is one of them: https://html.duckduckgo.com/html/?q=children+who+remember+past+lives cannot easily just say that "memory decays". > (Those axioms aren't entirely true; when digging into the research you > find that frequent, early repetition negatively impacts the rate of > forgetting later on, but for the sake of argument, we'll ignore > this) Repetitions methods I have been using as a child as I was in the environment where nobody knew better, neither my parents or grandparents neither teachers. Then I got the a sexy coach to teach me polynomials. Boy, I was getting it right! She explained me so that I understand it in all details. Professor of mathematics did not believe me when I got each of the tests perfect. I have even taken those most hardest polynomials from a friend in the subsequent grade so I knew already which tests will come and got myself well prepared. For professor it was phenomena he never have seen before. But since then, I have not been using repetition, I used methods to understand first each and every part of whatever miniscule or large subject of learning, especially I put attention to clarify all words by using dictionary. > The Supermemo algorithm is simply a mathematical method of attempting > to calculate the optimum interval for review, from the most crude and > simple SM-0 to SM-2 (used in Anki/Mnemosyne) to SM-5 (org-drill) to > SM-18, the latest iteration. > It isn't a mnemonic in any sense of the word - I hope that you can > explain how you understand the Supermemo method to be like a > mnemonic. Definiton of mnemotechnics or mnemonics (synonyms) is that it is technique of improving the memory, reference: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mnemonics#medicalDictionary and Wordnet: 1. mnemonic, mnemotechnic, mnemotechnical -- (of or relating to or involved the practice of aiding the memory; To say how your system, which improves your memory is not mnemonics only to "debunk" other systems comes from a conflict of interest, but any system helping the memory is mnemonics nevertheless. > You are most certainly right that the articles I linked may be > biased They appear biased, I do not say that their method do not work. People have various methods selling this and that, they don't like competition. There are those who truly like to help, no matter what, so they will rather give more independent analysis. > - of course, the latest iterations of Supermemo are pieces of > proprietary non-free software, and, ultimately, Piotr Wozniak's > motives will always be to sell you the software that he wrote and > invested his time into. Well now it explains it all. > There are definitely some snake-oil-like stuff on supermemo.guru, I would say, as I already know you a little and how you will be in rush to say so, don't say so, until you have exchanged opinions with those who have tried it out. Person's specific experience may be failure, but somebody else may be using it right, often I would need to see what is wrong in my application of a method and maybe I am doing something wrong. Once you and few other people have tried it out, and also tried other methods, then you could say that particular one does not work. > but a lot of the claims Dr Wozniak makes in reference to memory and > forgetting are scientifically sound (for proof of this, I'd advise > you read the Gwern article I originally linked; Gwern Branwen is an > independent researcher and his article is richly referenced and > makes conclusions based plenty of peer reviewed research). Harry and many other people who mastered memory in such way to demonstrate it to public are proof that things remembered in first place need not "decay". I don't know why is it important to state so. My grandmother told me it is impossible to remember what I was doing before my fifth year, but I remember the taste of my toes when I was biting them as baby and my mother's nipples including the taste of milk. And so many thing I can remember what my mother doesn't, and she was adult back then. Then I met so many other people who remember better then me. It is very hard to believe there is some "scientific proof" of memory decay. I will not tend to believe things when they are rather of authoritarian character. > I can't say I've done an extensive review of Harry Lorayne's work, but > from the bits that I've seen, I'm skeptical. I'm immediately > distrustful of someone for unbiased information if their occupation is > professional magician, even more so when he has written books with > titles as sensational and frankly nonsensical as "How to develop a > Super Power Memory", "Harry Lorayne's Secrets of Mind Power", "Memory > makes money" and, my personal favourite, "How to get rich using the > power of your mind". Now, I might be overly skeptical, but I generally > disregard sensationalised books written by someone with seemingly no > credentials whatsoever in favour of huge bodies of peer-reviewed > evidence. I think I have all of those books, just tell me. Well... can't help more than that. Harry's titles are not exaggerated. He is one of many who is eloquent and who made the methods closer to the public, but those are not new, they are ancient methods. There is nothing in those books that is impractical, like some vague practices that may not give you personal win. Each single method explained as soon as you learn it and do it, is giving you personal wins and you can do what you could not before. By the way I remember daughter of my friend in Messina, Sicily in Italy, we have let some of children movies play and she could speak the movie speech in real time with all words correctly spoken in the movie with proper time spacing between them, even without watching the video while having turned her back to the movie, and she could do it with other 30+ videos by choice. He father and my friend and mother, did not regard it as something special, as they could not compare it to many other children. She developed method in her mind to remember what is spoken in the movie while watching it, and with few repetitions over the time she remembered whole of the speech in the movie. > Mnemonics are definitely useful - I don't think I've ever argued that > they aren't, instead, what I'm arguing is that they aren't a panacea > to an indestructible memory. I never heard of destructible memory, but I know there is not-accessible human memory, in many examples of amnesia, trauma, accidents, problems in life, that is what happens and then again there are methods to regain it back. Another important factor is importance of application. Memory as such may be there, but unimportant to recall it. IMHO, the urge to apply piece of remembered information automatically recalls it. Let us say subject of verification of stones, in geology, when geologist has rocks on the table and proper tools, it will be easy to check it out, but maybe after years of not doing the job, due to lack of practical importance, those methods may not be easily accessible from memory. Then again put that same person in front of the rocks with same tools, person will start recalling. Personally, I have some artistic models that I have been making each time with my hands, and I feel that memory is there as soon as I would take the same tools in my hand. People call it muscle memory, I would rather say it is practice memory, practical application plus importance recalls the memory. Typing is one example, when person knows how to type, typing is blind, no looking into keys. It is muscle memory, but I would rather say practice memory. I can type the word "memory" but if somebody would ask me to say where exactly the key "e" is located I would need to think longer than what I would need to type. As I did not practice to find single letters, I have practiced to type words. While I can type on the whole keyboard blindly, including the ghost keys from other international keyboards, I would have some problems to reconstruct the whole keyboard from mind. If practice decays, recalling will apparently, not really, decay. Memory is stored somewhere, when practice comes back, recalling becomes automatic. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/