From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 09:02:16 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87ft1xurht.fsf@zoho.eu> <87sg5v13bs.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> <87ft1up9ca.fsf@zoho.eu> <8735xq7dfa.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24240"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 21 07:08:29 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lDhus-0006AU-Rp for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 07:08:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53788 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDhur-0000GM-RU for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 01:08:25 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42816) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDhta-0000Fx-2W for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 01:07:06 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:54641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDhtX-00073U-Ot for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 01:07:05 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.210.154.232]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001E079.000000006031F884.000016F1; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 23:07:00 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8735xq7dfa.fsf@zoho.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:128167 Archived-At: * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor [2021-02-20 22:23]: > Jean Louis wrote: > > >> You can just bring forward an empty tmux pane anytime and > >> do whatever task there instead. > > > > You are so right, but that is supervision of various > > processes, not suspending of a process. > > You can for example suspend a process like this: > > $ kill -STOP PID Sure I know that, since last 20 years. We have to look at those proposals globally, not personally. Objectively not subjectively. It is great that some shell providers offer tmux/screen like: https://blinkenshell.org/wiki/Start Yet that may not be the case for many other users. But mentioning tmux/screen is not relevant to suspending a process, like I have repeated several times. It is not good misleading users who read this mailing list to think that tmux/screen replaces something like suspending or continuing of a process. In Windoze systems, one will invoke process manager or task manager, I am not sure how it is called. If I remember well that would be with right mouse click on taskbar or Ctrl-Alt-Del but I am not sure as Windoze is changing over time. And that will work if there are no extensive CPU processes, as otherwise quicker suspend is not possible. So I have no idea for Windoze For GNU/Linux and BSD derivatives, console and terminal emulators are extensively used, there are millions of BSD-derivate types of servers that do not run X, and many will have users who do not have access to root powers to install some software. However, screen/tmux do not replace job control, as they offer as main service the continuation of software being run even when user logs off. Processes in tmux/screen still run, I know that, as I will often download heavy torrents by using screen. To be able to `kill -STOP PID' one has to have access to second terminal, or double shell or tmux/screen, but the time necessary to invoke those extra commands may be too long as in that time the program may already damage data, user may lose data, disk may be filled completely, files could be deleted by mistake and so on. Control-Z is used in emergency. Sometimes it may be used to switch from task to task, but that is just one case use, there are many different cases uses. In Emacs mailing lists people often forget that that Emacs and other software runs on multiuser computers. Universities, organizations, various computer providers, website providers, may provide shell access but not all types of software. Sometimes is impossible to install everything as user as what you can install as root. Not every user is using self-owned computer. Not every programming language is installable. System administrators may disable execution of programs on user partititions, so user could maybe download executable or compile it, but never run it or execute it. Now you say you can do kill -STOP PID, but of course I know, that is however something you do when you have access to command line. As if you do have access to command line in that case there is probably no need to quickly suspend a process by using Control-Z and probably there is no emergency situation where suspending a process is necessary. You may go slow by typing many letters, of course, after first searching for the process PID. Not every user can install tmux, screen, you name it. Not every user has Internet access to be able to install it. We have to look at proposals globally, planetary, not only for those users in developing countries. Is not objecitve to say that that everybody has Internet access and that every user can even pay for Internet access. As a side note to think about: Majority of stationaries with computers in developing countries in East Africa are NOT connected to Internet. That means it is harder to find stationary where I can tell them "please download https://www.example.com/1.pdf" as their computers are not connected to Internet. Universities and libraries may have GNU/Linux installed but without access to installation of software, without access to administrator, sometimes without an administrator at all.