From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Who use C-x u or C-/ for undo? Who uses C-z for undo? Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:16:49 +0300 Message-ID: References: <871rdk4c1m.fsf@robertthorpeconsulting.com> <640551af-d035-f133-3b98-fe7c7a06279d@yandex.ru> <8f760064-b6c2-5714-8a0c-6645b398e0fc@yandex.ru> <87czx2jh9y.fsf@zoho.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="604"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 15 07:21:51 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lBXGZ-000Aai-1G for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 07:21:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45072 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lBXGY-0005sx-4I for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:21:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60210) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lBXFu-0005so-Ou for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:21:10 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:55467) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lBXFs-0007iC-SL for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:21:10 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.210.147.95]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001E07E.00000000602A12D1.0000721D; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 23:21:05 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Dmitry Gutov , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:128079 Archived-At: * Dmitry Gutov [2021-02-15 05:24]: > On 15.02.2021 02:39, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text > editor wrote: > > > Because even though "suspend job" is handy to have in the > > > toolset, if an average user only reaches for it twice a year, > > > that command doesn't really need a key binding as prominent as > > > 'C-z'. > > Well, yes, but C-z isn't a good key. You have to move your > > entire hand, and it is awkward (keys too close) at that. > > > > > In comparison, I hit 'undo' at least a dozen times per hour. > > I have `undo' M-0. Left thumb, right ring finger. Much better > > IMO. > > M-0 is not too bad, but I think we can agree that 99/100 new users will look > for 'undo' on 'C-z'. Personally I have never used C-z for undo in Emacs. I do use it in browser as that is the only option. I have been using undo with C-x u for long time and still do so on many keyboards that are not this US type of a keyboard. On this US type I use C-/ Emacs was terminal application in first place, so at that time there was no Control-Z as undo I believe, it was meant probably for something else (guess what). More references for your research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_character#Other_uses Also take in consideration that Xerox is US company and they used QWERTY, as US company did not think of international planning. I do not agree that Control-Z is internationally good key for undo as sometimes it is close to left hand, sometimes it is in the middle of keyboard on QWERTZ layouts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTZ For you is easy to access Control-Z but when I am in Germany or simply use such layout, and I do, my mind switches and my Z is in the middle of keyboard. Not any more easy to access with one hand. Control-Z becomes little pain with left hand and is easier to access with both hands on QWERTZ keyboards.