From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 22:14:43 +0300 Message-ID: References: <1973673328.2493716.1612740554692.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1973673328.2493716.1612740554692@mail.yahoo.com> <83tuqnkzff.fsf@gnu.org> <8ed9b435026a7f251086@heytings.org> <87wnvg2ir0.fsf@mbork.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33235"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Cc: Gregory Heytings , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Marcin Borkowski Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 10 20:19:29 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l9v1M-0008Vo-UN for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 20:19:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36254 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9v1M-0003r3-0X for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 14:19:28 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49498) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9uyj-0002zo-6f for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 14:16:46 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:46337) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9uyf-0000aN-0N for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 14:16:44 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.3]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001DFF5.0000000060243114.00006272; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 12:16:36 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Marcin Borkowski , Gregory Heytings , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87wnvg2ir0.fsf@mbork.pl> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127777 Archived-At: * Marcin Borkowski [2021-02-10 15:46]: > > On 2021-02-10, at 11:36, Jean Louis wrote: > > > * Gregory Heytings [2021-02-09 12:13]: > >> > >> > > >> > Emacs is used on console by millions of people. Console itself defines > >> > C-z as suspend of the job, so C-z is always expecte to suspend the job > >> > for many programs, not only Emacs. > >> > > >> > [...] > >> > > >> > Those are common job control commands: > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_control_%28Unix%29#Commands > >> > > >> > >> As you see on that page, C-c also has a standard meaning, which Emacs > >> doesn't follow. Besides, the proposal binds "C-z C-z" to "frame-suspend". > > > > The proposal is good for Emacs but not good for shell users. Shell is > > fundamental to Emacs, it is foundation. Shell users expect C-z to work > > so that other jobs can be run in the shell. Breaking Emacs job is easy > > by quitting emacs, that has less priority and I do not assume that > > each job control feature has to be implemented in Emacs. > > It just occurred to me that maybe we can have the pie and eat it, too: > why not designate `suspend-frame' as disabled by default? Many Emacs > commands which may be confusing for beginners are set up this way, and > that makes sense - a seasoned user can easily enable a command (for the > current session or for all of them), you don't even have to write > a single line of Elisp for that. This way we remove (or at least > reduce) the danger for someone who does not know what `C-z' does. >From shell point of view C-z shall suspend the job. I do not even consider C-z being Emacs-based but now I assume it is decision of Emacs to keep C-z as how it should be in the shell. When opening a new VPS to process various jobs one would then need to first configure Emacs to have job control working. That is not useful. It would break many habits and expected behavior. There is no danger in shell as C-z almost in all cases means "suspend job". Any other editor I know in shell is suspended by C-z. Removing job control to shell users cannot be called a feature, it is anti-feature. Jean