From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: not good proposal: "C-z " reserved for users Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 13:36:53 +0300 Message-ID: References: <1973673328.2493716.1612740554692.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1973673328.2493716.1612740554692@mail.yahoo.com> <83tuqnkzff.fsf@gnu.org> <8ed9b435026a7f251086@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15743"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 10 11:42:10 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l9mwk-0003yv-0E for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 11:42:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55612 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9mwj-0000f5-1D for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 05:42:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44704) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9mwH-0000ez-SO for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 05:41:41 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:46159) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l9mwF-0007dD-Ns for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 05:41:41 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.3]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001E079.000000006023B860.00002526; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 03:41:36 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Gregory Heytings , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8ed9b435026a7f251086@heytings.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127760 Archived-At: * Gregory Heytings [2021-02-09 12:13]: > > > > > Emacs is used on console by millions of people. Console itself defines > > C-z as suspend of the job, so C-z is always expecte to suspend the job > > for many programs, not only Emacs. > > > > [...] > > > > Those are common job control commands: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_control_%28Unix%29#Commands > > > > As you see on that page, C-c also has a standard meaning, which Emacs > doesn't follow. Besides, the proposal binds "C-z C-z" to "frame-suspend". The proposal is good for Emacs but not good for shell users. Shell is fundamental to Emacs, it is foundation. Shell users expect C-z to work so that other jobs can be run in the shell. Breaking Emacs job is easy by quitting emacs, that has less priority and I do not assume that each job control feature has to be implemented in Emacs. Personal usage pattern is such that often I interrupt jobs in shell and run them again upon the need. The expectation on how to suspend the job comes from shell, it does not come from Emacs. Hard to explain. Imagine if every shell program would have different job control keys, that would be hell to remember. I can suspend vim, I can suspend mg (Emacs replacement), I can suspend zile, nvi, and mc (Midnight Commander), and I do not know which other terminal run program I cannot suspend with C-z -- but then for Emacs proposal says to depart from long year expected feature of the shell and to break the feauture and to introduce some other key. That would not be nice. I guess that is introduced by people who do not use job control in shell, for them personally it does not matter, but think of millions of Emacs users, they may expect it. I don't think such things that are fundamental or features that have been implemented for years should be questioned. Anyway I will agree to whatever developers wish and want. Some people have good computer, not everybody has. I have Lenovo T410 that I use to process videos and commands are run through Emacs Lisp. I may invoke the command and heat computer so much that if I invoke other program it goes into shutdown. I guess it is some feature of overheating. I may need to suspend Emacs not to do anything, so that I can run some other program in background. Video processing may take sometimes days. I do not think that many users process videos by using Emacs Lisp, but that is how I do it. If process is interrupted than I have to manually find the interrupted file, that is not easy but I did some measures on how to find it easier. I may invoke video processing in multiple directories though I try to avoid that. And Emacs Lisp command is doing it one by one, not in parallel as not to give much burden to CPU and again invoke overheating. Thus suspending does make sense for me. Jean