Re: Re: svg library ideas

Re: Re: svg library ideas

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Po Lu write:

> Building anything with Rust also involves downloading a lot of binary
code off the internet, and I am not quite comfortable with that.

And, on top, it's extremely painful in platforms were librsvg is not
available. Would it make sense to look at using the ICEWM library in Emacs
as an alternative? Downloading and compiling it as part of the process of
building Emacs seems less painful than building librsvg...

Just thinking about a summer challenge...

/PA
-- 
Fragen sind nicht da um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

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Re: svg library ideas

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 07:39:04 +0100
> 
> > Building anything with Rust also involves downloading a lot of binary
> code off the internet, and I am not quite comfortable with that.
> 
> And, on top, it's extremely painful in platforms were librsvg is not available. Would it make sense to look at
> using the ICEWM library in Emacs as an alternative? Downloading and compiling it as part of the process of
> building Emacs seems less painful than building librsvg... 

AFAIU, IceWM is an X11 window manager, so how could it be an
alternative for librsvg, which is a library for displaying SVG images?

Re: svg library ideas

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2023-02-03 11:02]:
> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 07:39:04 +0100
> > 
> > > Building anything with Rust also involves downloading a lot of binary
> > code off the internet, and I am not quite comfortable with that.
> > 
> > And, on top, it's extremely painful in platforms were librsvg is
> > not available. Would it make sense to look at using the ICEWM
> > library in Emacs as an alternative? Downloading and compiling it
> > as part of the process of building Emacs seems less painful than
> > building librsvg...
> 
> AFAIU, IceWM is an X11 window manager, so how could it be an
> alternative for librsvg, which is a library for displaying SVG images?

IceWM uses this library:

memononen/nanosvg: Simple stupid SVG parser:
https://github.com/memononen/nanosvg


--
Jean

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Re: svg library ideas

[Po Lu]

AFAIK this library does not support embedding images inside SVG files.


On February 3, 2023 7:25:59 PM GMT+08:00, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2023-02-03 11:02]:
>> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
>> > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 07:39:04 +0100
>> > 
>> > > Building anything with Rust also involves downloading a lot of binary
>> > code off the internet, and I am not quite comfortable with that.
>> > 
>> > And, on top, it's extremely painful in platforms were librsvg is
>> > not available. Would it make sense to look at using the ICEWM
>> > library in Emacs as an alternative? Downloading and compiling it
>> > as part of the process of building Emacs seems less painful than
>> > building librsvg...
>> 
>> AFAIU, IceWM is an X11 window manager, so how could it be an
>> alternative for librsvg, which is a library for displaying SVG images?
>
>IceWM uses this library:
>
>memononen/nanosvg: Simple stupid SVG parser:
>https://github.com/memononen/nanosvg
>
>
>--
>Jean
>
>Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
>In support of Richard M. Stallman
>https://stallmansupport.org/
>

Re: svg library ideas

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu <Luangruo@yahoo.com> [2023-02-03 15:33]:
> AFAIK this library does not support embedding images inside SVG files.

Maybe you could add to it?

-- 
Jean

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Re: svg library ideas

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 14:25:59 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>,
>   emacs-devel@gnu.org, luangruo@yahoo.com, rms@gnu.org
> 
> * Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2023-02-03 11:02]:
> > AFAIU, IceWM is an X11 window manager, so how could it be an
> > alternative for librsvg, which is a library for displaying SVG images?
> 
> IceWM uses this library:
> 
> memononen/nanosvg: Simple stupid SVG parser:
> https://github.com/memononen/nanosvg

Thanks.  The README says:

  This project is not actively maintained.
  [...]
  NanoSVG is a simple stupid single-header-file SVG parse.

Not sure this is good enough for us, so someone would have to
investigate and report back.

Re: svg library ideas

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 at 18:50, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> IceWM uses this library:
>
> memononen/nanosvg: Simple stupid SVG parser:
> https://github.com/memononen/nanosvg

Does it? In Ubuntu ≥22.04, the icewm package lists librsvg2-2 in its
runtime dependencies. (But not in 18.04 or 20.04.)

Re: svg library ideas

[Jean Louis]

* Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2023-02-03 16:58]:
> On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 at 18:50, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> > IceWM uses this library:
> >
> > memononen/nanosvg: Simple stupid SVG parser:
> > https://github.com/memononen/nanosvg
> 
> Does it? In Ubuntu ≥22.04, the icewm package lists librsvg2-2 in its
> runtime dependencies. (But not in 18.04 or 20.04.)

Then it changed, they upgraded it, now using that one. Sorry!
Information is not updated! ☹️

Can you use this one?

AmanithSVG, a software library for reading and rendering SVG files:
https://www.amanithsvg.com/

"It doesn't depend on third party libraries with the exception of the
C/C++ standard library and a modified version of PugiXML"


-- 
Jean

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Re: svg library ideas

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 10:06:35 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
>   Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>,
>   emacs-devel@gnu.org, luangruo@yahoo.com, rms@gnu.org
> 
> Can you use this one?
> 
> AmanithSVG, a software library for reading and rendering SVG files:
> https://www.amanithsvg.com/

That site says:

 Source Code

 In order to satisfy all the needs to have total control over the
 software, the complete AmanithSVG (along with AmanithVG) engine
 source code is always available as a licensing option.

How can we use a library that is not Free Software and whose source
code is only available "as a licensing option"?  The SDK they tell to
download includes only binaries and header files, the sources of the
library itself are indeed not available.

Re: svg library ideas

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2023-02-04 11:50]:
> > Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 10:06:35 +0300
> > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
> >   Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>,
> >   emacs-devel@gnu.org, luangruo@yahoo.com, rms@gnu.org
> > 
> > Can you use this one?
> > 
> > AmanithSVG, a software library for reading and rendering SVG files:
> 
> That site says:
> 
>  Source Code
> 
>  In order to satisfy all the needs to have total control over the
>  software, the complete AmanithSVG (along with AmanithVG) engine
>  source code is always available as a licensing option.

You are right. For some reason I assumed that all software on Github
is free software, and I was reading their terms back in time and
understood, maybe wrongly, that only free software may be placed in
free accounts, and not proprietary one.

That is grave mistake.

--
Jean

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Re: svg library ideas

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Most of the packages in GitHub carry no license, which means
they are non-free.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: svg library ideas

[Jean Louis]

* Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2023-02-03 16:58]:
> On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 at 18:50, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> > IceWM uses this library:
> >
> > memononen/nanosvg: Simple stupid SVG parser:
> > https://github.com/memononen/nanosvg

And why not implement in that library embedded pictures?

Maybe is not much work to make fork or to contribute to it.

-- 
Jean

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svg library ideas

[Po Lu]

Before I give up and package librsvg v2.40.2, the last version of
librsvg to not include any Rust code, for the Android port, I want to
ask:

Does anyone know of an up-to-date SVG rendering library that either just
outputs splines, or uses pixman, and is written in C or C++?

Newer versions of librsvg are not suitable for the Android port, because
Android forces all dependencies to be built while building Emacs itself
(see INSTALL.android on the feature/android branch for the details), and
there is no user facing Rust toolchain for Android that can be
integrated into the Emacs build system.

BTW, remember what I said about C and portability?  Rust is already
causing problems for a new Emacs port, despite there being no Emacs code
written in Rust at all.

Re: svg library ideas

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> [2023-01-27 16:11]:
> BTW, remember what I said about C and portability?  Rust is already
> causing problems for a new Emacs port, despite there being no Emacs code
> written in Rust at all.

What I know is that Ice Window Manager (IceWM) uses Nanosvg:

memononen/nanosvg: Simple stupid SVG parser:
https://github.com/memononen/nanosvg


-- 
Jean

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In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: svg library ideas

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Newer versions of librsvg are not suitable for the Android port, because
  > Android forces all dependencies to be built while building Emacs itself

That is peculiar -- do they consider it missing support, or do they
consider it a feature?  If the latter, what purpose do they state?

  > (see INSTALL.android on the feature/android branch for the details), and

That goes beyond my knowledge of Git.  Po Lu, can you tell me how to
access that branch?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: svg library ideas

[Po Lu]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > Newer versions of librsvg are not suitable for the Android port, because
>   > Android forces all dependencies to be built while building Emacs itself
>
> That is peculiar -- do they consider it missing support, or do they
> consider it a feature?  If the latter, what purpose do they state?

Android doesn't provide any method for installing shared libraries
system-wide, because their developers consider it too difficult to keep
binary compatibility there.

> That goes beyond my knowledge of Git.  Po Lu, can you tell me how to
> access that branch?

I suggest running ``git fetch && git checkout feature/android'' from the
Emacs source tree.  But do not do this on a source tree where you are
doing work -- it will clobber all of that.

Re: svg library ideas

[Jim Porter]

On 1/28/2023 9:29 PM, Po Lu wrote:
> I suggest running ``git fetch && git checkout feature/android'' from the
> Emacs source tree.  But do not do this on a source tree where you are
> doing work -- it will clobber all of that.

Instead of checking out 'feature/android', you could probably do 
something like this:

   git fetch && git show origin/feature/android:INSTALL.android | less

'git show' lets you view various objects in Git; in this case, just the 
contents of a file on another branch. I don't use 'git show' often, but 
it's very convenient in certain cases like this.

Re: svg library ideas

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 22:44:15 -0800
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@gmail.com>
> 
>    git fetch && git show origin/feature/android:INSTALL.android | less

TIL

But there's no need to pipe the command through 'less', since Git does
that automatically.

Re: svg library ideas

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   > Newer versions of librsvg are not suitable for the Android port, because
  > >   > Android forces all dependencies to be built while building Emacs itself

  > Android doesn't provide any method for installing shared libraries
  > system-wide.

Could there be a way of installing a shared library which is not
system-wide, but simply for the sake of building one program?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: svg library ideas

[Po Lu]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > >   > Newer versions of librsvg are not suitable for the Android port, because
>   > >   > Android forces all dependencies to be built while building Emacs itself
>
>   > Android doesn't provide any method for installing shared libraries
>   > system-wide.
>
> Could there be a way of installing a shared library which is not
> system-wide, but simply for the sake of building one program?

Yes, but in the end the shared library will still have to end up inside
the Emacs application package (much like how the MS-Windows installer
binaries on ftp.gnu.org contain all of Emacs's dependencies), and it
will still have to be built with the same compiler options as Emacs is.

Re: svg library ideas

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Yes, but in the end the shared library will still have to end up inside
  > the Emacs application package (much like how the MS-Windows installer
  > binaries on ftp.gnu.org contain all of Emacs's dependencies), and it
  > will still have to be built with the same compiler options as Emacs is.

I think I understand.  But if there is some usual set of settings that
people would usually build Emacs with, maybe that could make prebuilt
shared libraries start to be useful -- you just have to build them
with that usual set of settings.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: svg library ideas

[Po Lu]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I think I understand.  But if there is some usual set of settings that
> people would usually build Emacs with, maybe that could make prebuilt
> shared libraries start to be useful -- you just have to build them
> with that usual set of settings.

Indeed, but it would be difficult to build rsvg with that set of options
either.

The reason is apparently that the Rust compiler assumes newer Android
versions than what Emacs distributors will typically want to support.

Building anything with Rust also involves downloading a lot of binary
code off the internet, and I am not quite comfortable with that.

Re: svg library ideas

[Gregory Heytings]

>
> Building anything with Rust also involves downloading a lot of binary 
> code off the internet, and I am not quite comfortable with that.
>

That sentence is guaranteed to make Richard raise an eyebrow, but it is 
not correct.

When you build a Rust program, the build system does not download any 
binary code at all: it downloads the _sources_ of all the dependencies of 
the program, recursively, and everything is built from the sources. 
(Note that all the sources are kept locally after building.)

It is when you build Emacs or any other program written in C or C++ that 
you (usually) download a lot of binary code: you download the binary 
packages of its dependencies that your distro provides.

Re: svg library ideas

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 00:18:31 -0500
> 
>   > (see INSTALL.android on the feature/android branch for the details), and
> 
> That goes beyond my knowledge of Git.  Po Lu, can you tell me how to
> access that branch?

The easiest way is to "access" it by reading the diffs of that branch
against the master branch.  Like this (after "git pull", and assuming
that your current branch is 'master'):

  $ git diff ...origin/feature/android