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From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: "Yuri Khan" <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>,
	"Rudolf Adamkovič" <salutis@me.com>,
	"help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: How to make M-x TAB not work on (interactive) declaration?
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 21:41:18 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <Y8WaTgZXlX1FqTSm@protected.localdomain> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CO6PR10MB5473A0CB3D8B3AA5EF82A0CFF3C19@CO6PR10MB5473.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

* Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> [2023-01-16 20:07]:
> I think the replies you've gotten already might well help you
> understand.  Please consider rereading them.

I do not dispute that group theory exists, or identity, and it is part
of mathematic.

I do not see relation between identity and lisp function which is
supposed to give product of multiplication or sum of addition, and I
can't imagine that Lisp authors did that to those functions for reasons
to avoid `apply' function to fail.

There are X number of mathematical stuff that is not represented in
Lisp because it should not be there, a function should do one thing well.

What is missing in my understanding is:

- purpose of (*) ➜ 1, (-) ➜ 0 and (+) ➜ 0 as I do not understand how I
  would apply it else but making a funny Christmass tree in obscured
  programming and relation to Lisp. I have tried searching for
  references but can't find.

(defun m (n)
  (let ((m))
  (dotimes (b n)
    (setq m (cons "(*)" m)))
  (concat "(+" (string-join m) ")")))

(let ((first 1))
  (insert "\n")
  (while (<= first 10)
    (let ((second 1))
      (while (<= second 10)
	(insert "(*" (m first)(m second) ")\n")
	(setq second (1+ second)))
      (setq first (1+ first)))))

One reference to it I find in "Common Lisp - A Gentle Introduction to
Symbolic Computing":

> Suppose x and y are lists. (REDUCE #’+ (APPEND x y)) should produce
> the same value as the sum of (REDUCE #’+ x) and (REDUCE #’+ y). If y
> is NIL, then (APPEND x y) equals x, so (REDUCE #’+ y) has to return
> zero. Zero is the identity value for addition. That’s why calling +
> with no arguments returns zero. Similarly, calling * with no arguments
> returns one because one is the multiplicative identity.

Let's compare:

(let ((x '(3 3 3))
      (y '(4 4 4)))
  (reduce #'* (append x y))) ➜ 1728
Same in Common Lisp

(let ((x '(3 3 3))
      (y '(4 4 4)))
  (+ (reduce #'+ x) (reduce #'+ y))) ➜ 21
Same in Common Lisp

Am I wrong here making sum how it said I should make?

(let ((x '(3 3 3))
      (y nil))
  (append x y)) ➜ (3 3 3)
I cannot see that (append x y) equals x -- I cannot follow the example

(let ((x '(3 3 3))
      (y nil))
  (reduce #'+ y)) ➜ 0
This is correct as in example

Again I read "That's why calling + with no arguments returns zero" and do they mean that "why" is with reason to make function `reduce' work similarly like to make `apply' work?

-- 
Jean

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  reply	other threads:[~2023-01-16 18:41 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 167+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-01-07 20:53 How to make M-x TAB not work on (interactive) declaration? Jean Louis
2023-01-07 21:11 ` Ruijie Yu via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2023-01-07 23:40   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-08  6:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-01-08  6:19   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-09  4:49     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-09  6:26       ` algorithmic Lisp language (was: Re: How to make M-x TAB not work on (interactive) declaration?) Emanuel Berg
2023-01-09 19:30         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-09 19:32         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-08  6:21   ` How to make M-x TAB not work on (interactive) declaration? Jean Louis
2023-01-08  6:32     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-08 10:38     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-01-08  8:34 ` Tassilo Horn
2023-01-08 11:01   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-01-09 13:29     ` Tassilo Horn
2023-01-08 21:35   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-08 22:35     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-01-09  0:24       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-09 19:47         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-10 23:28           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-13  6:21             ` (*)->1 Jean Louis
2023-01-14 12:03               ` (*)->1 Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-14 12:33                 ` (*)->1 Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-15 20:18           ` [External] : Re: How to make M-x TAB not work on (interactive) declaration? Rudolf Adamkovič
2023-01-15 20:57             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15 22:33               ` Drew Adams
2023-01-15 23:10                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-16 15:28                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 17:07                   ` Drew Adams
2023-01-16 18:25                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17  2:20                       ` Drew Adams
2023-01-17  5:28                         ` tomas
2023-01-17 22:20                           ` Drew Adams
2023-01-18  5:14                             ` tomas
2023-01-18  5:26                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-19 11:38                                 ` tomas
2023-01-19 11:51                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-21 14:05                                     ` tomas
2023-01-23 10:14                                       ` Robert Pluim
2023-01-23 16:44                                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-23 19:28                                         ` tomas
2023-01-18 17:27                               ` Drew Adams
2023-01-18 17:32                                 ` tomas
2023-01-18 14:32                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 20:36                               ` Drew Adams
2023-01-19  9:05                                 ` (*) -> 1 Jean Louis
2023-01-19  9:41                                   ` Yuri Khan
2023-01-19 12:52                                   ` Anders Munch
2023-01-17  5:35                         ` [External] : Re: How to make M-x TAB not work on (interactive) declaration? Jean Louis
2023-01-17 15:59                           ` Yuri Khan
2023-01-17 16:42                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 16:05                           ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-17 16:17                             ` Yuri Khan
2023-01-17 16:25                             ` tomas
2023-01-17 16:55                             ` (*) -> 1 Jean Louis
2023-01-17 17:52                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-17 18:11                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-17 18:40                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 19:04                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-18 13:15                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 14:37                                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-18 18:17                                         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-01-17 19:35                                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-17 21:12                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-17 22:01                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-17 23:38                                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-18  7:50                                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-18  8:37                                           ` tomas
2023-01-18 12:46                                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-18 13:44                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-18 14:07                                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-18 16:19                                                   ` Andreas Eder
2023-01-18 17:14                                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-19  8:37                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 18:18                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 11:52                         ` [External] : Re: How to make M-x TAB not work on (interactive) declaration? Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-15 21:08             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16  5:02               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-16  5:38               ` tomas
2023-01-16 10:10                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 10:41                   ` Yuri Khan
2023-01-16 15:26                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17  4:06                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-17 14:00                   ` tomas
2023-01-17 22:43                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-17 16:25                 ` Nick Dokos
2023-01-17 17:19                   ` Jean Louis
2023-02-11  4:38                     ` Ruijie Yu via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2023-02-11 10:54                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 17:41                   ` Nick Dokos
2023-01-16  7:55               ` Yuri Khan
2023-01-16 10:16                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 10:37                   ` Yuri Khan
2023-01-16 15:35                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 15:59                       ` Yuri Khan
2023-01-16 16:14                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 16:47                           ` tomas
2023-01-16 17:07                           ` Drew Adams
2023-01-16 18:41                             ` Jean Louis [this message]
2023-01-16 10:51                   ` Anders Munch
2023-01-16 15:38                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 17:40                       ` Andreas Eder
2023-01-16 18:17                         ` tomas
2023-01-16 18:55                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 19:14                             ` tomas
2023-01-16 18:46                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17  2:37                           ` Eduardo Ochs
2023-01-17  5:46                             ` (*) -> 1 Jean Louis
2023-01-17 15:56                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-17 16:29                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 16:43                                   ` tomas
2023-01-17 17:25                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 19:11                                       ` Nick Dokos
2023-01-17 17:17                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-17 17:26                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 18:46                                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-17 18:51                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 18:04                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-17 18:28                                       ` Eduardo Ochs
2023-01-17 19:18                                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-18 12:27                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 13:37                                           ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-19  8:20                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 10:06                                               ` Tassilo Horn
2023-01-19 13:43                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-19 14:42                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 15:27                                                   ` tomas
2023-01-18 13:57                                           ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-19  8:32                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 16:51                                               ` Óscar Fuentes
2023-01-20  8:01                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 14:25                                           ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-19  8:34                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 13:54                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-19 14:54                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 15:19                                                   ` Tassilo Horn
2023-01-20  7:05                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-20  8:52                                                       ` Tassilo Horn
2023-01-20 12:46                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-20 13:02                                                           ` Tassilo Horn
2023-01-20 16:06                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21  8:19                                                               ` Tassilo Horn
2023-01-22  4:30                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-22  6:55                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-22 10:56                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-23  3:40                                                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-01-22 14:34                                                                   ` Akib Azmain Turja
2023-01-23  2:23                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-23  5:37                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-23  5:55                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-24  2:33                                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-19 15:46                                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-19 17:38                                                   ` Dr Rainer Woitok
2023-01-20  7:31                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-20 11:49                                                       ` Dr Rainer Woitok
2023-01-19 14:54                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 17:44                                                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-01-19 21:29                                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-20  7:40                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-20  8:47                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-20  7:33                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:02                                 ` Anders Munch
2023-01-18 10:49                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-01-18 11:10                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-01-18 12:48                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-01-18 14:29                                     ` Michael Heerdegen
     [not found]                           ` <87k01lica7.fsf@eder.anydns.info>
2023-01-17 16:04                             ` Jean Louis

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