Running emacs without any customisation

Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

I have the following in my .emacs file.  Calling (xepty 'nogo) should
not execute anything.  But when I run emacs, I get a black background.

I thought I would get the equivalent of "emacs -Q".

(defun xepty (&optional statck)
  "Launch xepty tools for Emacs."

  (unless (equal statck 'nogo)
    (add-to-list 'load-path "${HOME}/xepty/")
    (load "xepty")
    (xepty-tools)))

(xepty 'nogo)

(custom-set-variables
 '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
 '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Thibaut Verron]

Hi,

So I see two things here.

First, even with an empty .emacs, just running emacs might not the 
equivalent of "emacs -Q", as it will still load the system-wide 
configuration files (the "site-elisp").

Second, running emacs with an empty .emacs should not result in a black 
background. The cause is almost certainly in the xepty.el file where all 
the functions and variables used here are (I hope) defined.

Best wishes,

Thibaut

On 10/10/2022 13:36, uzibalqa wrote:

> I have the following in my .emacs file.  Calling (xepty 'nogo) should
> not execute anything.  But when I run emacs, I get a black background.
>
> I thought I would get the equivalent of "emacs -Q".
>
> (defun xepty (&optional statck)
>    "Launch xepty tools for Emacs."
>
>    (unless (equal statck 'nogo)
>      (add-to-list 'load-path "${HOME}/xepty/")
>      (load "xepty")
>      (xepty-tools)))
>
> (xepty 'nogo)
>
> (custom-set-variables
>   '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
>   '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:46 AM, Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:


> Hi,
> 
> So I see two things here.
> 
> First, even with an empty .emacs, just running emacs might not the
> equivalent of "emacs -Q", as it will still load the system-wide
> configuration files (the "site-elisp").
> 
> Second, running emacs with an empty .emacs should not result in a black
> background. The cause is almost certainly in the xepty.el file where all
> the functions and variables used here are (I hope) defined.

(xepty 'nogo) should not even load "xepty.el".  Hom can one figure out 
what "site-elisp" could be doing?

 
> On 10/10/2022 13:36, uzibalqa wrote:
> 
> > I have the following in my .emacs file. Calling (xepty 'nogo) should
> > not execute anything. But when I run emacs, I get a black background.
> > 
> > I thought I would get the equivalent of "emacs -Q".
> > 
> > (defun xepty (&optional statck)
> > "Launch xepty tools for Emacs."
> > 
> > (unless (equal statck 'nogo)
> > (add-to-list 'load-path "${HOME}/xepty/")
> > (load "xepty")
> > (xepty-tools)))
> > 
> > (xepty 'nogo)
> > 
> > (custom-set-variables
> > '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
> > '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Thibaut Verron]

On 10/10/2022 13:54, uzibalqa wrote:
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:46 AM, Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> So I see two things here.
>>
>> First, even with an empty .emacs, just running emacs might not the
>> equivalent of "emacs -Q", as it will still load the system-wide
>> configuration files (the "site-elisp").
>>
>> Second, running emacs with an empty .emacs should not result in a black
>> background. The cause is almost certainly in the xepty.el file where all
>> the functions and variables used here are (I hope) defined.
> (xepty 'nogo) should not even load "xepty.el".  Hom can one figure out
> what "site-elisp" could be doing?

Oh, right, sorry, I missed the unless.

On my system (ubuntu) there are configuration files in /usr/share/emacs, 
/usr/share/emacsen-common and /etc/emacs. I don't know if they are all run.

Regardless, the site lisp should not cause emacs to fail to start or 
start with a black screen. To test it, you can run emacs without your 
config but with most site-lisp with emacs -q.

I assume that you don't get the black screen with -Q? And that you don't 
have any other configuration files in your .emacs.d (for example 
early-init.el) ?

Best wishes,

Thibaut

>
>   
>> On 10/10/2022 13:36, uzibalqa wrote:
>>
>>> I have the following in my .emacs file. Calling (xepty 'nogo) should
>>> not execute anything. But when I run emacs, I get a black background.
>>>
>>> I thought I would get the equivalent of "emacs -Q".
>>>
>>> (defun xepty (&optional statck)
>>> "Launch xepty tools for Emacs."
>>>
>>> (unless (equal statck 'nogo)
>>> (add-to-list 'load-path "${HOME}/xepty/")
>>> (load "xepty")
>>> (xepty-tools)))
>>>
>>> (xepty 'nogo)
>>>
>>> (custom-set-variables
>>> '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
>>> '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 12:10 PM, Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:


> On 10/10/2022 13:54, uzibalqa wrote:
> 
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:46 AM, Thibaut Verron thibaut.verron@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > So I see two things here.
> > > 
> > > First, even with an empty .emacs, just running emacs might not the
> > > equivalent of "emacs -Q", as it will still load the system-wide
> > > configuration files (the "site-elisp").
> > > 
> > > Second, running emacs with an empty .emacs should not result in a black
> > > background. The cause is almost certainly in the xepty.el file where all
> > > the functions and variables used here are (I hope) defined.
> > > (xepty 'nogo) should not even load "xepty.el". Hom can one figure out
> > > what "site-elisp" could be doing?
> 
> 
> Oh, right, sorry, I missed the unless.
> 
> On my system (ubuntu) there are configuration files in /usr/share/emacs,
> /usr/share/emacsen-common and /etc/emacs. I don't know if they are all run.
> 
> Regardless, the site lisp should not cause emacs to fail to start or
> start with a black screen. To test it, you can run emacs without your
> config but with most site-lisp with emacs -q.
> 
> I assume that you don't get the black screen with -Q? And that you don't
> have any other configuration files in your .emacs.d (for example
> early-init.el) ?
 
With "emacs -Q" I get the expected white screen.  I do not have an "early-init.el"
in my ".emacs.d".  But I do have something installed:  

.               places
..              session.10b21b0bf7ddc78cb816648280224499300000018700060
abbrev_defs     session.10b21b0bf7ddc78cb8166502604539066600000018700137
auto-save-list  session.10b21b0bf7ddc78cb8166502678640923500000018700138
elpa            session.10b21b0bf7ddc78cb8166505172554019500000018700140

ls elpa
archives  company-20211024.2305  gnupg  xr-1.23  xr-1.23.signed

> > > On 10/10/2022 13:36, uzibalqa wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I have the following in my .emacs file. Calling (xepty 'nogo) should
> > > > not execute anything. But when I run emacs, I get a black background.
> > > > 
> > > > I thought I would get the equivalent of "emacs -Q".
> > > > 
> > > > (defun xepty (&optional statck)
> > > > "Launch xepty tools for Emacs."
> > > > 
> > > > (unless (equal statck 'nogo)
> > > > (add-to-list 'load-path "${HOME}/xepty/")
> > > > (load "xepty")
> > > > (xepty-tools)))
> > > > 
> > > > (xepty 'nogo)
> > > > 
> > > > (custom-set-variables
> > > > '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
> > > > '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Thibaut Verron wrote:

> Regardless, the site lisp should not cause emacs to fail to
> start or start with a black screen. To test it, you can run
> emacs without your config but with most site-lisp with emacs
> -q.

Yes, -Q is '-q --no-site-file --no-splash', see emacs(1).

But debugging init files without _any_ configuration or basic
packages loaded is often painful, both when you know what you
look for and when you don't, so it is better to retain some
control of your .emacs and disable it little by little in
a hopefully intelligent way rather than just use -q or -Q.

Or you can use -Q first, "okay, it's not you, it's me", and
then use more granular methods ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Drew Adams]

> you can use -Q first, "okay, it's not you, it's me

Pretty much always the place to start, yes.
 

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Thibaut Verron wrote:

> First, even with an empty .emacs, just running emacs might
> not the equivalent of "emacs -Q", as it will still load the
> system-wide configuration files (the "site-elisp").

Indeed, what you can do if you don't want to read any
configuration (except the configuration that says don't read
any configuration) is to either use `load-file' in .emacs to
the real (additional) configuration, and then comment those
lines out as desired, _or_ do something else to the extent of
reading or not reading the code, for example just gobble
everything, not right now perhaps but in a `while'.

(while nil
  ... ; brilliant code here
)

> Second, running emacs with an empty .emacs should not result
> in a black background

Why not? It's more ergonomic.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> (custom-set-variables
>  '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
>  '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))

Note that this can have side effects (like loading something).

Michael.

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes:

> uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:
>
> > (custom-set-variables
> >  '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
> >  '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))
>
> Note that this can have side effects (like loading something).

Let me add: in theory, any kind of side effects (besides setting the
option variable as requested).

It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects other
than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuff,
and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule.

That could be the case here.

Michael.

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 3:13 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> Michael Heerdegen michael_heerdegen@web.de writes:
> 
> > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> > 
> > > (custom-set-variables
> > > '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
> > > '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))
> > 
> > Note that this can have side effects (like loading something).
> 
> 
> Let me add: in theory, any kind of side effects (besides setting the
> option variable as requested).
> 
> It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects other
> than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuff,
> and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule.
> 
> That could be the case here.
> 
> Michael.

custom-set-variables was introduced when users set their customisations.  If there
be side effects, wouldn't it be good that emacs handles them as well if the init 
file does not use them.

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 3:56 PM, uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote:


> ------- Original Message -------
> On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 3:13 PM, Michael Heerdegen michael_heerdegen@web.de wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Michael Heerdegen michael_heerdegen@web.de writes:
> > 
> > > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> > > 
> > > > (custom-set-variables
> > > > '(savehist-additional-variables '(xepty-frame-pos))
> > > > '(xepty-frame-pos '(34 . 34)))
> > > 
> > > Note that this can have side effects (like loading something).
> > 
> > Let me add: in theory, any kind of side effects (besides setting the
> > option variable as requested).
> > 
> > It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects other
> > than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuff,
> > and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule.
> > 
> > That could be the case here.
> > 
> > Michael.
> 
> 
> custom-set-variables was introduced when users set their customisations. If there
> be side effects, wouldn't it be good that emacs handles them as well if the init
> file does not use them.

I have commented out the custom-set-variables  as well, but still get the dark background.

Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> > It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects other
> > than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuff,
> > and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule.
> > 
> > That could be the case here.
> > 
> > Michael.
>
> custom-set-variables was introduced when users set their
> customisations.  If there be side effects, wouldn't it be good that
> emacs handles them as well if the init file does not use them.

It's equivalent to the halting problem to decide whether the init file
uses any side effect.  No chance to find that out in general.

Michael.

RE: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Drew Adams]

> It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects other
> than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuff,
> and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule.

FWIW, I disagree that "it is an error".
It may be poor form, unfriendly, or impolite,
but it's not an error.  And yes, it's a "rule"
(guideline), and a useful one.

But it need not always be poor form, unfriendly,
or impolite, provided users are sufficiently
informed clearly what loading the library does,
that is, just what side effects it performs.

In general, yes, it's _not_ user-friendly etc.
In particular, however, it could be.

It's analogous to turning on a minor mode
(though not the same): If you know what loading
some package does, and you load it, then you
are, in effect, turning on a "mode".  It's a
user _choice_ to load a library.

One big disadvantage, however is that you might
not have read the doc explaining what loading
does.  Another big disadvantage is that
`unload-feature' and `<XXX>-unload-function'
might not (likely will not) truly reverse
everything that loading did.

To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of side
effects while loading a library.  I'm just
disagreeing that that's an error, or that it's
always necessarily a big bad thing.

Your init file is a "library".  You load it.
It performs side effects.  It's your choice to
load it (versus `emacs -Q').  Of course, you're
likely the only user of your init file, so at
worst you shoot only yourself in the foot.

There's a fuzzy gradation from such a Lisp file
and a "library" or "package".  (That's Lisp and
free software.)

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> [a lot :-)]

Yes, sure, like baroque counterpoint rules not always respected even by
Bach himself.

The decision of what side effects are surprising or "an error" is
subjective.  OTOH, it's probably not easy to find good examples for
acceptable not totally trivial loading side effects, so the rule is a
good one generally, and it's good to speak it out clearly, because
people not respecting it is by far the bigger problem, and people who
know what they are doing know what they are doing anyway.

Michael.

RE: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Drew Adams]

> Yes, sure, like baroque counterpoint rules not always respected even by
> Bach himself.
> 
> The decision of what side effects are surprising or "an error" is
> subjective.  OTOH, it's probably not easy to find good examples for
> acceptable not totally trivial loading side effects, so the rule is a
> good one generally, and it's good to speak it out clearly, because
> people not respecting it is by far the bigger problem, and people who
> know what they are doing know what they are doing anyway.

Agreed.
(Bach says he agrees also.)

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Agreed.
> (Bach says he agrees also.)

Oh - you have a contact?  I was sure he is using Lisp.

Michael.

RE: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Drew Adams]

> > Agreed.
> > (Bach says he agrees also.)
> 
> Oh - you have a contact?

I only receive the occasional note, not
punctually.  More like counterpunctually.

> I was sure he is using Lisp.

A very old version of Elisp, I think.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 4:17 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> Drew Adams drew.adams@oracle.com writes:
>
> > [a lot :-)]
>
>
> Yes, sure, like baroque counterpoint rules not always respected even by
> Bach himself.
>
> The decision of what side effects are surprising or "an error" is
> subjective. OTOH, it's probably not easy to find good examples for
> acceptable not totally trivial loading side effects, so the rule is a
> good one generally, and it's good to speak it out clearly, because
> people not respecting it is by far the bigger problem, and people who
> know what they are doing know what they are doing anyway.
>
> Michael.

I have looked at ".emacs.d" and removed session files and abbrev values.  I only have 
company, xr and gnupg.  Still I get black background.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> I have looked at ".emacs.d" and removed session files and abbrev
> values.  I only have company, xr and gnupg.  Still I get black
> background.

It's best if you could investigate what causes the black background.
People here can only guess - we don't know your system and settings.

Michael.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 7:10 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > I have looked at ".emacs.d" and removed session files and abbrev
> > values. I only have company, xr and gnupg. Still I get black
> > background.
> 
> 
> It's best if you could investigate what causes the black background.
> People here can only guess - we don't know your system and settings.
> 
> Michael.

I am not loading my init file either.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> I am not loading my init file either.

If that is for sure, then, well, it must be something else.  There is a
node in the manual with a complete list of what Emacs loads at startup,
in which order.

How do you start Emacs?  Is your custom file loaded?  Or do you know for
sure what is causing the background being changed?

Michael.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 7:43 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > I am not loading my init file either.
> 
> 
> If that is for sure, then, well, it must be something else. There is a
> node in the manual with a complete list of what Emacs loads at startup,
> in which order.
> 
> How do you start Emacs? Is your custom file loaded? Or do you know for
> sure what is causing the background being changed?
> 
> Michael.

Have also renamed .emacs to .emacs-user.  And still I get black background.
Not being able to revert to a fresh emacs start is a problem.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> Have also renamed .emacs to .emacs-user.  And still I get black
> background.  Not being able to revert to a fresh emacs start is a
> problem.

Ok, so it's not your init file.

Had you already tried with the -q flag?

Michael.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 8:45 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > Have also renamed .emacs to .emacs-user. And still I get black
> > background. Not being able to revert to a fresh emacs start is a
> > problem.
> 
> 
> Ok, so it's not your init file.
> 
> Had you already tried with the -q flag?
> 
> Michael.

Yes I have used "emacs -q" which should disregard the .emacs init file even
when it exists.  In my case, it does not even exist, and I get black background
nevertheless.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> Yes I have used "emacs -q" which should disregard the .emacs init file
> even when it exists.  In my case, it does not even exist, and I get
> black background nevertheless.

That hints at the system's site file ... or something in the custom file
(-> the file that (custom-file) returns).  Maybe you can empty that file
before investigating further.

Michael.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 9:23 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > Yes I have used "emacs -q" which should disregard the .emacs init file
> > even when it exists. In my case, it does not even exist, and I get
> > black background nevertheless.
> 
> 
> That hints at the system's site file ... or something in the custom file
> (-> the file that (custom-file) returns). Maybe you can empty that file
> 
> before investigating further.
> 
> Michael.

"(custom-file) C-x C-e" gives me "~/.emacs"

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> "(custom-file) C-x C-e" gives me "~/.emacs"

Even in a session with your init file not loaded?

Michael.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 10:28 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > "(custom-file) C-x C-e" gives me "~/.emacs"
> 
> 
> Even in a session with your init file not loaded?
> 
> Michael.

Yes and even with a non-existent "~/.emacs", black background results.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> Yes and even with a non-existent "~/.emacs", black background results.

Then I have no clue without more information.  Does maybe
customize-themes show an activated theme?

If not, is the black background the only thing different from emacs -Q?
If it is and you have no hint about what the culprit could be, the next
step would indeed be to have a look at the site stuff in detail.

Michael.

Re: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 10:47 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > Yes and even with a non-existent "~/.emacs", black background results.
> 
> 
> Then I have no clue without more information. Does maybe
> customize-themes show an activated theme?
> 
> If not, is the black background the only thing different from emacs -Q?
> If it is and you have no hint about what the culprit could be, the next
> step would indeed be to have a look at the site stuff in detail.
> 
> Michael.

customize-themes does not show any theme selected.  I am not sure whether 
the black background is the only thing that is different from "emacs -Q".

Re: RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 3:57 AM
> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> To: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation
>
> > It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects other
> > than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuff,
> > and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule.
>
> FWIW, I disagree that "it is an error".
> It may be poor form, unfriendly, or impolite,
> but it's not an error.  And yes, it's a "rule"
> (guideline), and a useful one.
>
> But it need not always be poor form, unfriendly,
> or impolite, provided users are sufficiently
> informed clearly what loading the library does,
> that is, just what side effects it performs.
>
> In general, yes, it's _not_ user-friendly etc.
> In particular, however, it could be.
>
> It's analogous to turning on a minor mode
> (though not the same): If you know what loading
> some package does, and you load it, then you
> are, in effect, turning on a "mode".  It's a
> user _choice_ to load a library.
>
> One big disadvantage, however is that you might
> not have read the doc explaining what loading
> does.  Another big disadvantage is that
> `unload-feature' and `<XXX>-unload-function'
> might not (likely will not) truly reverse
> everything that loading did.
>
> To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of side
> effects while loading a library.  I'm just
> disagreeing that that's an error, or that it's
> always necessarily a big bad thing.
>
> Your init file is a "library".  You load it.
> It performs side effects.  It's your choice to
> load it (versus `emacs -Q').  Of course, you're
> likely the only user of your init file, so at
> worst you shoot only yourself in the foot.
>
> There's a fuzzy gradation from such a Lisp file
> and a "library" or "package".  (That's Lisp and
> free software.)

From my perspective, the situation in a bit different.  How can
users restore to a fresh system when things get messed up?

There should be clear instructions to users.

Re: RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 5:45 PM, Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:


> > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 3:57 AM
> > From: "Drew Adams" drew.adams@oracle.com
> > To: "Michael Heerdegen" michael_heerdegen@web.de, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Running emacs without any customisation
> > 
> > > It is an error in a package if loading the package has side effects other
> > > than defining functions and variables, recursively loading other stuff,
> > > and these things, but not all stuff out there respects that rule.
> > 
> > FWIW, I disagree that "it is an error".
> > It may be poor form, unfriendly, or impolite,
> > but it's not an error. And yes, it's a "rule"
> > (guideline), and a useful one.
> > 
> > But it need not always be poor form, unfriendly,
> > or impolite, provided users are sufficiently
> > informed clearly what loading the library does,
> > that is, just what side effects it performs.
> > 
> > In general, yes, it's not user-friendly etc.
> > In particular, however, it could be.
> > 
> > It's analogous to turning on a minor mode
> > (though not the same): If you know what loading
> > some package does, and you load it, then you
> > are, in effect, turning on a "mode". It's a
> > user choice to load a library.
> > 
> > One big disadvantage, however is that you might
> > not have read the doc explaining what loading
> > does. Another big disadvantage is that
> > `unload-feature' and` <XXX>-unload-function'
> > might not (likely will not) truly reverse
> > everything that loading did.
> > 
> > To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of side
> > effects while loading a library. I'm just
> > disagreeing that that's an error, or that it's
> > always necessarily a big bad thing.
> > 
> > Your init file is a "library". You load it.
> > It performs side effects. It's your choice to
> > load it (versus `emacs -Q'). Of course, you're
> > likely the only user of your init file, so at
> > worst you shoot only yourself in the foot.

I do not see it is only me that gets shot, because the
command

emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash

also displays a black background, whereas "emacs -Q" gives a white background.


 
> > There's a fuzzy gradation from such a Lisp file
> > and a "library" or "package". (That's Lisp and
> > free software.)
> 
> 
> From my perspective, the situation in a bit different. How can
> users restore to a fresh system when things get messed up?
> 
> There should be clear instructions to users.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> I do not see it is only me that gets shot, because the
> command
>
> emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash
>
> also displays a black background, whereas "emacs -Q" gives a white
> background.

I wonder if your init file could be loaded if it is also your custom
file?

Anyway, I now would try to check (mapcar #'car load-history) for stuff
under your home dir.  You could compare the result with the result of
eval'ing that in emacs -Q and look for differences (using diff or Ediff
or whatever).

Michael.

Re: RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Dr Rainer Woitok]

Uzibalqa,

On Wednesday, 2022-10-12 00:12:02 +0000, you wrote:

> ...
> emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash
> 
> also displays a black background, whereas "emacs -Q" gives a white background.

.Xresources?

Sincerely,
  Rainer

Re: RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 9:59 AM, Dr Rainer Woitok <rainer.woitok@gmail.com> wrote:


> Uzibalqa,
> 
> On Wednesday, 2022-10-12 00:12:02 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> > ...
> > emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash
> > 
> > also displays a black background, whereas "emacs -Q" gives a white background.
> 
> 
> .Xresources?
> 
> Sincerely,
> Rainer

You are quite right Rainer.

xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs

Emacs*Background:	#000000

Emacs*Dialog*background:	#000000

Emacs*Dialog*foreground:	#ffffff

Emacs*Foreground:	#ffffff

Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Background:	#000000

Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Foreground:	#ffffff

Emacs*backgroundToolBarColor:	#000000

Emacs*bottomToolBarShadowColor:	#000000

Emacs*menubar*background:	#000000

Emacs*menubar*foreground:	#ffffff

Emacs*popup*Background:	#000000

Emacs*popup*Foreground:	#ffffff

Emacs*topToolBarShadowColor:	#000000

Emacs.default.attributeBackground:	#000000

Emacs.default.attributeForeground:	#ffffff

Emacs.mode-line.attributeForeground:	#ffffff

Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeBackground:	#000000

Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeForeground:	#ffffff

Emacs.tool-bar.attributeBackground:	#000000

Emacs.tool-bar.attributeForeground:	#ffffff

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

Dr Rainer Woitok <rainer.woitok@gmail.com> writes:

> > ...
> > emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash
> >
> > also displays a black background, whereas "emacs -Q" gives a white
> > background.
>
> .Xresources?

Wow - very good hint, thanks.  [ That's not Lisp, had been completely off my
radar! ]

RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Drew Adams]

> > > emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash
> > >
> > > also displays a black background, whereas "emacs -Q" gives a white
> > > background.
> >
> > .Xresources?
> 
> Wow - very good hint, thanks.  [ That's not Lisp, had been completely off
> my radar! ]

Ditto.  +1.

RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 3:30 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:


> > > > emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash
> > > > 
> > > > also displays a black background, whereas "emacs -Q" gives a white
> > > > background.
> > > 
> > > .Xresources?
> > 
> > Wow - very good hint, thanks. [ That's not Lisp, had been completely off
> > my radar! ]
> 
> 
> Ditto. +1.

If skillful people can miss Xresources, Emacs should be able to handle the release 
on these resources.  It is Emacs who sets these resources, am I right?  

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> If skillful people can miss Xresources, Emacs should be able to handle
> the release on these resources.  It is Emacs who sets these resources,
> am I right?

Sure, and you can turn it off using "--no-x-resources".  Totally
symmetric to the other stuff discussed, only that some of us don't use
it.  You obviously did, so it's your choice to either remember your
settings there or alternatively try all "do not load" options listed in
the man page.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 5:03 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > If skillful people can miss Xresources, Emacs should be able to handle
> > the release on these resources. It is Emacs who sets these resources,
> > am I right?
> 
> 
> Sure, and you can turn it off using "--no-x-resources". Totally
> symmetric to the other stuff discussed, only that some of us don't use
> it. You obviously did, so it's your choice to either remember your
> settings there or alternatively try all "do not load" options listed in
> the man page.

That does solve anything because customarily one does not use --no-x-resources
when calling emacs.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> That does solve anything because customarily one does not use
> --no-x-resources when calling emacs.

What is the problem to solve then?

Michael.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 6:25 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > That does solve anything because customarily one does not use
> > --no-x-resources when calling emacs.
> 
> 
> What is the problem to solve then?
> 
> Michael.

The problem is that one uses a fresh emacs session, emacs should not have
these x resources set up, because emacs will actually make use of them.
Whilst emacs makes use of them, I do not see that emacs can also refresh
them (remove them perhaps) to got the user vanilla emacs.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> The problem is that one uses a fresh emacs session, emacs should not have
> these x resources set up, because emacs will actually make use of them.
> Whilst emacs makes use of them, I do not see that emacs can also refresh
> them (remove them perhaps) to got the user vanilla emacs.

It's technically not treated differently than other sources of
configuration - or is it?  Is there a difference compared to your init
file, your site file(s), your custom file, your abbrev save file, etc?

I mean, you, the user, explicitly told Emacs to use these settings.  You
can suppress them being used using options, and you can remove them in
the same way you added them.  If you don't like that being a source of
customization, just don't use it, there is redundancy (which is not
wrong).

What I also wanted to add: note that Drew doesn't even use X, so it's no
surprise it's not on his radar.  My situation is not that different.
Many other users might use Xresources.  They might not have an init file
OTOH.  Nothing special here IMO.

Michael.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 7:06 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > The problem is that one uses a fresh emacs session, emacs should not have
> > these x resources set up, because emacs will actually make use of them.
> > Whilst emacs makes use of them, I do not see that emacs can also refresh
> > them (remove them perhaps) to got the user vanilla emacs.
> 
> 
> It's technically not treated differently than other sources of
> configuration - or is it? Is there a difference compared to your init
> file, your site file(s), your custom file, your abbrev save file, etc?
> 
> I mean, you, the user, explicitly told Emacs to use these settings. You
> can suppress them being used using options, and you can remove them in
> the same way you added them. If you don't like that being a source of
> customization, just don't use it, there is redundancy (which is not
> wrong).

I have removed the init file, but emacs will force that configuration, rather
than use vanilla emacs.

I have not personally added them.  Nevertheless, how can I remove them exactly?
 
> What I also wanted to add: note that Drew doesn't even use X, so it's no
> surprise it's not on his radar. My situation is not that different.
> Many other users might use Xresources. They might not have an init file
> OTOH. Nothing special here IMO.
> 
> Michael.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> I have not personally added them.  Nevertheless, how can I remove them
> exactly?

You did not edit the Xresources file?  Very strange, I don't know how
that can be.

Anyway, in Gnu Emacs the file is by default located at "~/.Xresources" -
just remove the emacs related lines, syntax should be understandable.

If the behavior does not come from that file, I'm out, I'm not using the
resources mechanism myself.

Michael.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 8:51 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > I have not personally added them. Nevertheless, how can I remove them
> > exactly?
> 
> 
> You did not edit the Xresources file? Very strange, I don't know how
> that can be.
> 
> Anyway, in Gnu Emacs the file is by default located at "~/.Xresources" -
> just remove the emacs related lines, syntax should be understandable.
> 
> If the behavior does not come from that file, I'm out, I'm not using the
> resources mechanism myself.
> 
> Michael.

I am using Trisquel 9.   Correct, I did not edit anything and the Xresources file does not exist.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> I am using Trisquel 9.  Correct, I did not edit anything and the
> Xresources file does not exist.

When reading (info "(emacs) Resources") does not give any more hints to
you, I'm out of ideas (or knowledge).  Seems the name of the resources
file can vary.  Also seems that
`internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource' is doing the work, but
that's all C stuff, so I'm out here.

Michael.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 9:35 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > I am using Trisquel 9. Correct, I did not edit anything and the
> > Xresources file does not exist.
> 
> 
> When reading (info "(emacs) Resources") does not give any more hints to
> you, I'm out of ideas (or knowledge). Seems the name of the resources
> file can vary. Also seems that
> `internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource' is doing the work, but
> that's all C stuff, so I'm out here.
> 
> Michael.

Then, this is something within the realm of the emacs maintainers to get on top
of it.  Trisquel 9 is supposed to be an Officially Approved Gnu System, where
the parts should be designed to work well together.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> > When reading (info "(emacs) Resources") does not give any more hints to
> > you, I'm out of ideas (or knowledge). Seems the name of the resources
> > file can vary. Also seems that
> > `internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource' is doing the work, but
> > that's all C stuff, so I'm out here.
>
> Then, this is something within the realm of the emacs maintainers to
> get on top
> of it.  Trisquel 9 is supposed to be an Officially Approved Gnu
> System, where
> the parts should be designed to work well together.

You have read that page and are sure that it's not your setting that
causes the different color?  I mean, it must come from somewhere...

Michael.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 10:11 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > > When reading (info "(emacs) Resources") does not give any more hints to
> > > you, I'm out of ideas (or knowledge). Seems the name of the resources
> > > file can vary. Also seems that
> > > `internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource' is doing the work, but
> > > that's all C stuff, so I'm out here.
> > 
> > Then, this is something within the realm of the emacs maintainers to
> > get on top
> > of it. Trisquel 9 is supposed to be an Officially Approved Gnu
> > System, where
> > the parts should be designed to work well together.
> 
> 
> You have read that page and are sure that it's not your setting that
> causes the different color? I mean, it must come from somewhere...
> 
> Michael.

I agree with you, but its definitely not the result of user settings.
Some program gets to a condition that make this happen.  It is not a
straightforward thing.  Things are not clear right now.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Dale Snell]

A couple of notes:

1)  Remember that ~/.Xresources is a replacement for the previous
~/.Xdefaults file.  If you don't have the former, you may have the
latter.

2) At least on Fedora, there is a /etc/X11/Xresources file that may be
causing you grief.  In my system, it has only three entries, but
somebody at Trisequel 9 may have decided to be “helpful.”

3) You may want to check your ~/.xinitrc file, it could be doing something odd.

4) Just in case, read man xrdb(1).  It’s a long shot, but you never know.

Hope this helps.  Beyond this, I am out of my depth.

--Dale

-- 
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what’s a workstation?


On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 3:26 PM uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote:
>
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 10:11 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:
>
>
> > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> >
> > > > When reading (info "(emacs) Resources") does not give any more hints to
> > > > you, I'm out of ideas (or knowledge). Seems the name of the resources
> > > > file can vary. Also seems that
> > > > `internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource' is doing the work, but
> > > > that's all C stuff, so I'm out here.
> > >
> > > Then, this is something within the realm of the emacs maintainers to
> > > get on top
> > > of it. Trisquel 9 is supposed to be an Officially Approved Gnu
> > > System, where
> > > the parts should be designed to work well together.
> >
> >
> > You have read that page and are sure that it's not your setting that
> > causes the different color? I mean, it must come from somewhere...
> >
> > Michael.
>
> I agree with you, but its definitely not the result of user settings.
> Some program gets to a condition that make this happen.  It is not a
> straightforward thing.  Things are not clear right now.
>
>
>

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 12:33 AM, Dale Snell <dalesnell54@gmail.com> wrote:


> A couple of notes:
> 
> 1) Remember that ~/.Xresources is a replacement for the previous
> ~/.Xdefaults file. If you don't have the former, you may have the
> latter.

I have no files "~/.Xresources" or "~/.Xdefaults".  Neither one nor the other.
 
> 2) At least on Fedora, there is a /etc/X11/Xresources file that may be
> causing you grief. In my system, it has only three entries, but
> somebody at Trisequel 9 may have decided to be “helpful.”

There is /etc/X11/Xresources/x11-common  which is not doing much.
 
> 3) You may want to check your ~/.xinitrc file, it could be doing something odd.

Not using this file
 
> 4) Just in case, read man xrdb(1). It’s a long shot, but you never know.
> 
> Hope this helps. Beyond this, I am out of my depth.
> 
> --Dale
> 
> --
> If a train station is a place where a train stops, what’s a workstation?
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 3:26 PM uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me wrote:
> 
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 10:11 PM, Michael Heerdegen michael_heerdegen@web.de wrote:
> > 
> > > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> > > 
> > > > > When reading (info "(emacs) Resources") does not give any more hints to
> > > > > you, I'm out of ideas (or knowledge). Seems the name of the resources
> > > > > file can vary. Also seems that
> > > > > `internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource' is doing the work, but
> > > > > that's all C stuff, so I'm out here.
> > > > 
> > > > Then, this is something within the realm of the emacs maintainers to
> > > > get on top
> > > > of it. Trisquel 9 is supposed to be an Officially Approved Gnu
> > > > System, where
> > > > the parts should be designed to work well together.
> > > 
> > > You have read that page and are sure that it's not your setting that
> > > causes the different color? I mean, it must come from somewhere...
> > > 
> > > Michael.
> > 
> > I agree with you, but its definitely not the result of user settings.
> > Some program gets to a condition that make this happen. It is not a
> > straightforward thing. Things are not clear right now.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Here is that old (2013-08-07) article again.

I understand it but not the 1-3 part, really? I wonder what
I is?

~/.Xdefaults and ~/.Xresources

The old solution was: Whenever an X (Xlib) application is
started, it looks in ~/.Xdefaults for settings before it
executes; the file had to be on the same filesystem, in the
user's HOME.

The new or half-new solution is: Whenever an X application is
started, it looks for settings in RESOURCE_MANAGER
(XA_RESOURCE_MANAGER) in the root window of screen 0.
Settings are there only if xrdb(1) has been executed since the
start of X. If not, the _fallback_ is to look for settings in
~/Xdefaults (every time and for every application, i.e.
the same as the old solution).

xrdb doesn't necessarily read ~/.Xresources, that's
a convention. In face xrdb can read many and any file, even
~/.Xdefaults. xrdb has to be used even for

With Xresources any user can use, or not use, xrdb to
load settings.

Xresources are mobile; compare to ~/.Xdefaults which hs to be
in $HOME.

To test the enhanced mobility, after reading resources with
xrdb, do the following:

1. In X, a WM (e.g. openbsd-cwm) a terminal emulator (xterm),
   ssh to some system with the -Y option. There, start xterm,
   or any other application that you have configured on your
   local system but not on the system to which you ssh'd.
   Then, do the same on you local system, start xterm.
   They look the same!

2. Now, on your local system, run 'xrdb -remove'. Again, start
   xterm on both the remote and the local system - again, they
   look the same, only now, they aren't configured.

3. Last, to demonstrate the limited scope of Xdefaults,
   without using xrdb since step 2, on you local system, run
   'cp ~/.Xresources ~/.Xdefaults' (after salvaging anything
   of value from Xdefaults), then run xterm on both remote and
   local system. The remote xterm is unconfigured, but the
   local xterm is - only this time from Xdefaults.

Notes:

  The #1 Google hit on this issue recommends making ~/.xinitrc
  an executable, with 'chmod +x' - this is not needed.

  Also, the same article exemplifies the use of xrdb in
  .xinitrc with a trailing '&', making xrdb a background
  process. This isn't right, as the next program run from
  .xinitrc may use the very same settings, that xrdb is in the
  process of setting up, and that must be completed before any
  application that depends on it can be run. The cure is,
  remove the '&'.

Some xterm settings useful for testing:

xterm*autoWrap:        true
xterm*pointerMode:     2
xterm*geometry:        77x28
xterm*background:      black
xterm*foreground:      green4
xterm*faceName:        default
xterm*metaSendsEscape: true

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, October 14th, 2022 at 5:10 AM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Here is that old (2013-08-07) article again.
> 
> I understand it but not the 1-3 part, really? I wonder what
> I is?
> 
> ~/.Xdefaults and ~/.Xresources
> 
> The old solution was: Whenever an X (Xlib) application is
> started, it looks in ~/.Xdefaults for settings before it
> executes; the file had to be on the same filesystem, in the
> user's HOME.
> 
> The new or half-new solution is: Whenever an X application is
> started, it looks for settings in RESOURCE_MANAGER
> (XA_RESOURCE_MANAGER) in the root window of screen 0.
> Settings are there only if xrdb(1) has been executed since the
> start of X. If not, the fallback is to look for settings in
> ~/Xdefaults (every time and for every application, i.e.
> the same as the old solution).
> 
> xrdb doesn't necessarily read ~/.Xresources, that's
> a convention. In face xrdb can read many and any file, even
> ~/.Xdefaults. xrdb has to be used even for

Correct.  I tested that, xrdb doesn't necessarily read "~/.Xresources".
Would there be side effects if users customarily inhibit x resaurces.
What happens when emacs utilises x resources and an emacs theme is enabled?
  

 
> With Xresources any user can use, or not use, xrdb to
> load settings.


 
> Xresources are mobile; compare to ~/.Xdefaults which hs to be
> in $HOME.
> 
> To test the enhanced mobility, after reading resources with
> xrdb, do the following:
> 
> 1. In X, a WM (e.g. openbsd-cwm) a terminal emulator (xterm),
> ssh to some system with the -Y option. There, start xterm,
> or any other application that you have configured on your
> local system but not on the system to which you ssh'd.
> Then, do the same on you local system, start xterm.
> They look the same!
> 
> 2. Now, on your local system, run 'xrdb -remove'. Again, start
> xterm on both the remote and the local system - again, they
> look the same, only now, they aren't configured.
> 
> 3. Last, to demonstrate the limited scope of Xdefaults,
> without using xrdb since step 2, on you local system, run
> 'cp ~/.Xresources ~/.Xdefaults' (after salvaging anything
> of value from Xdefaults), then run xterm on both remote and
> local system. The remote xterm is unconfigured, but the
> local xterm is - only this time from Xdefaults.
> 
> Notes:
> 
> The #1 Google hit on this issue recommends making ~/.xinitrc
> an executable, with 'chmod +x' - this is not needed.
> 
> Also, the same article exemplifies the use of xrdb in
> .xinitrc with a trailing '&', making xrdb a background
> process. This isn't right, as the next program run from
> .xinitrc may use the very same settings, that xrdb is in the
> process of setting up, and that must be completed before any
> application that depends on it can be run. The cure is,
> remove the '&'.
> 
> Some xterm settings useful for testing:
> 
> xtermautoWrap: true
> xtermpointerMode: 2
> xtermgeometry: 77x28
> xtermbackground: black
> xtermforeground: green4
> xtermfaceName: default
> xterm*metaSendsEscape: true
> 
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> I agree with you, but its definitely not the result of user settings.
> Some program gets to a condition that make this happen.  It is not a
> straightforward thing.  Things are not clear right now.

X resources are not just put in a file, and Emacs does not really
determine where they come from, which is (in no particular order):

  - the server-global resource string, on the root window of screen 0.
  - screen-local resources, on the root window of the default screen.
  - ~/.Xresources or ~/.Xdefaults, if neither of the above are set.
  - ~/.Xdefaults-name, where name is the name of the machine on which
    *Emacs* is running.
  - application specific resources in XUSERFILESEARCHPATH, XAPPLRESDIR,
    XFILESEARCHPATH, and /usr/X11R6/lib/app-defaults/ (or
    /usr/share/X11/app-defaults).

Trisquel probably sets X resources in an attempt to make oldschool X
programs (of which Emacs is one) match the system GTK stylesheet.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> Trisquel 9 is supposed to be an Officially Approved Gnu System, where
> the parts should be designed to work well together.

What is "Officially Approved Gnu System"?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 12:43 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > Trisquel 9 is supposed to be an Officially Approved Gnu System, where
> > the parts should be designed to work well together.
> 
> 
> What is "Officially Approved Gnu System"?

It is the recommended installable versions of GNU stated by the Gnu Project
and the FSF. 

The FSF USB membership card comes with Trisquel 9.0 or Trisquel 10.0.  The
FSF commonly runs Trisquel 10 on their machines. And Richard Stallman is 
using Trisquel as of January 2015.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> It is the recommended installable versions of GNU stated by the Gnu Project
> and the FSF. 
>
> The FSF USB membership card comes with Trisquel 9.0 or Trisquel 10.0.  The
> FSF commonly runs Trisquel 10 on their machines. And Richard Stallman is 
> using Trisquel as of January 2015.

That says nothing about what X resources it sets.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Dr Rainer Woitok]

Uzibalqa,

On Wednesday, 2022-10-12 21:05:33 +0000, wrote:

> ...
> > > I have not personally added them. Nevertheless, how can I remove them
> > > exactly?

In an earlier mail within this thread you listed the output from command

   xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs

This command listed the Emacs specific entries in the "X server resource
database".   "xrdb" is only listing  the sum of configuration specifica-
tions others, like your administrator,  your window manager, other soft-
ware or you personally (via file "~/.Xresources") are providing.

So whereever these specifications originate from,  you can override them
in your personal "~/.Xresources" file.  Just run

   xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs > ~/.Xresources

and then edit this file to your heart's content.

> > ...
> > Anyway, in Gnu Emacs the file is by default located at "~/.Xresources" -

Michael,   are you sure Gnu Emacs  is actually opening file "~/.Xresour-
ces"?  I'd suspect it just queries the "X server resource database" like
anybody else.   For me the current case  is pointing in exactly this di-
rection.

> > ...
> I am using Trisquel 9.   Correct, I did not edit anything and the Xresources file does not exist.

On some Linux distributions  (not sure about Ubuntu and Trisquel) X11 is
providing system wide  default resource specifications.   So it's better
to use one's own as described above.

Sincerely
  Rainer

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Rainer Woitok wrote:

> So whereever these specifications originate from, you can
> override them in your personal "~/.Xresources" file.
> Just run
>
>   xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs > ~/.Xresources
>
> and then edit this file to your heart's content.

There is also ~/.xsession or (more often) ~/.Xsession, and
even more possibly in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ ...

I wrote a post here about 10 years ago (?) about the
difference between the .Xresources and .Xsession files and how
they worked, if you can find that I'm sure I got it all
wrong :P
-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 11:17 AM, Dr Rainer Woitok <rainer.woitok@gmail.com> wrote:


> Uzibalqa,
> 
> On Wednesday, 2022-10-12 21:05:33 +0000, wrote:
> 
> > ...
> > 
> > > > I have not personally added them. Nevertheless, how can I remove them
> > > > exactly?
> 
> 
> In an earlier mail within this thread you listed the output from command
> 
> xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs
> 
> This command listed the Emacs specific entries in the "X server resource
> database". "xrdb" is only listing the sum of configuration specifica-
> tions others, like your administrator, your window manager, other soft-
> ware or you personally (via file "~/.Xresources") are providing.
> 
> So whereever these specifications originate from, you can override them
> in your personal "~/.Xresources" file. Just run
> 
> xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs > ~/.Xresources
> 
> 
> and then edit this file to your heart's content.

Rainer, this will only just put the EMACS settings in ~/.Xresources
And because I do not want settings this way, but simply get vanilla
emacs when not using options.

Have done as you suggested, made "~/.Xresources" with nothing in it, but
then Emacs still does not fire up Vanilla Emacs.

 
> > > ...
> > > Anyway, in Gnu Emacs the file is by default located at "~/.Xresources" -
> 
> 
> Michael, are you sure Gnu Emacs is actually opening file "~/.Xresour-
> ces"? I'd suspect it just queries the "X server resource database" like
> anybody else. For me the current case is pointing in exactly this di-
> rection.

I agree, it just queries the x-resource database. 
 
> > > ...
> > > I am using Trisquel 9. Correct, I did not edit anything and the Xresources file does not exist.
> 
> 
> On some Linux distributions (not sure about Ubuntu and Trisquel) X11 is
> providing system wide default resource specifications. So it's better
> to use one's own as described above.
> 
> Sincerely
> Rainer

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> Rainer, this will only just put the EMACS settings in ~/.Xresources
> And because I do not want settings this way, but simply get vanilla
> emacs when not using options.
>
> Have done as you suggested, made "~/.Xresources" with nothing in it, but
> then Emacs still does not fire up Vanilla Emacs.

"I want a car that drives without gas, please..."

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, October 14th, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > Rainer, this will only just put the EMACS settings in ~/.Xresources
> > And because I do not want settings this way, but simply get vanilla
> > emacs when not using options.
> > 
> > Have done as you suggested, made "~/.Xresources" with nothing in it, but
> > then Emacs still does not fire up Vanilla Emacs.
> 
> 
> "I want a car that drives without gas, please..."

Why do you need x-resources database to set background colour of a window?
Or colour of the modeline?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> Why do you need x-resources database to set background colour of a window?
> Or colour of the modeline?

You don't.  But you want Emacs (the car) to ignore X resources (drive)
when there is no other source of defaults, without asking Emacs to
ignore them (filling the tank with gas.)

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 11:17 PM
> From: "Dr Rainer Woitok" <rainer.woitok@gmail.com>
> To: "uzibalqa" <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
> Uzibalqa,
>
> On Wednesday, 2022-10-12 21:05:33 +0000, wrote:
>
> > ...
> > > > I have not personally added them. Nevertheless, how can I remove them
> > > > exactly?
>
> In an earlier mail within this thread you listed the output from command
>
>    xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs
>
> This command listed the Emacs specific entries in the "X server resource
> database".   "xrdb" is only listing  the sum of configuration specifica-
> tions others, like your administrator,  your window manager, other soft-
> ware or you personally (via file "~/.Xresources") are providing.
>
> So whereever these specifications originate from,  you can override them
> in your personal "~/.Xresources" file.  Just run
>
>    xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs > ~/.Xresources
>
> and then edit this file to your heart's content.
>
> > > ...
> > > Anyway, in Gnu Emacs the file is by default located at "~/.Xresources" -
>
> Michael,   are you sure Gnu Emacs  is actually opening file "~/.Xresour-
> ces"?  I'd suspect it just queries the "X server resource database" like
> anybody else.   For me the current case  is pointing in exactly this di-
> rection.
>
> > > ...
> > I am using Trisquel 9.   Correct, I did not edit anything and the Xresources file does not exist.
>
> On some Linux distributions  (not sure about Ubuntu and Trisquel) X11 is
> providing system wide  default resource specifications.   So it's better
> to use one's own as described above.
>
> Sincerely
>   Rainer

Following this thread and the related bug one, I tend to agree with this user.
Taking information on typeface for emacs by simply capturing from the x-resource
database is defective.  Because the generally accepted recommendation in to use
customisations from within Emacs, it goes to reason that emacs should not enforce
the x-resource database by default.  Such settings should be given to those who
know what they are doing, allowing them to specify the x-resource database information
they want emacs to use.  But the location of the settings must be made in a way that
experienced users actually specify.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Michael Heerdegen]

Dr Rainer Woitok <rainer.woitok@gmail.com> writes:

> Michael,   are you sure Gnu Emacs  is actually opening file "~/.Xresour-
> ces"?  I'd suspect it just queries the "X server resource database" like
> anybody else.

I have no clue, but you are probably right.

Michael.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 4:47 AM
> From: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
> Dr Rainer Woitok <rainer.woitok@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Michael,   are you sure Gnu Emacs  is actually opening file "~/.Xresour-
> > ces"?  I'd suspect it just queries the "X server resource database" like
> > anybody else.
>
> I have no clue, but you are probably right.
>
> Michael.

Simply querying the x-resource database is an emacs design mistake.
Almost sure that emacs will continue propagating this mistake.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2022-10-13 20:57]:
> Simply querying the x-resource database is an emacs design mistake.
> Almost sure that emacs will continue propagating this mistake.

For your understanding:

       Most X clients use the RESOURCE_MANAGER and SCREEN_RESOURCES properties
       to get user preferences about color, fonts, and so on for applications.
       Having this information in the server (where it  is  available  to  all
       clients) instead of on disk, solves the problem in previous versions of
       X that required you to maintain defaults files on  every  machine  that
       you might use.  It also allows for dynamic changing of defaults without
       editing files.

       The RESOURCE_MANAGER property is used for resources that apply  to  all
       screens  of  the display.  The SCREEN_RESOURCES property on each screen
       specifies additional (or overriding) resources  to  be  used  for  that
       screen.   (When  there is only one screen, SCREEN_RESOURCES is normally
       not used, all resources are just placed in the  RESOURCE_MANAGER  prop‐
       erty.)

X Window System is network system. Do not assume that each client has
same size of monitor and that your Emacs will look same on every
client.

If user does not understand why to use X resources, and assumes to be
single user, then don't use it.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes:

> Anyway, in Gnu Emacs the file is by default located at "~/.Xresources" -
> just remove the emacs related lines, syntax should be understandable.

That isn't really true.  Anyway, uzibalqa, run "xrdb -query".  What does
it say?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 12:42 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> Michael Heerdegen michael_heerdegen@web.de writes:
> 
> > Anyway, in Gnu Emacs the file is by default located at "~/.Xresources" -
> > just remove the emacs related lines, syntax should be understandable.
> 
> 
> That isn't really true. Anyway, uzibalqa, run "xrdb -query". What does
> it say?

This is the result of xrdb

xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs

Emacs*Background: #000000

Emacs*Dialog*background: #000000

Emacs*Dialog*foreground: #ffffff

Emacs*Foreground: #ffffff

Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Background: #000000

Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Foreground: #ffffff

Emacs*backgroundToolBarColor: #000000

Emacs*bottomToolBarShadowColor: #000000

Emacs*menubar*background: #000000

Emacs*menubar*foreground: #ffffff

Emacs*popup*Background: #000000

Emacs*popup*Foreground: #ffffff

Emacs*topToolBarShadowColor: #000000

Emacs.default.attributeBackground: #000000

Emacs.default.attributeForeground: #ffffff

Emacs.mode-line.attributeForeground: #ffffff

Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeBackground: #000000

Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeForeground: #ffffff

Emacs.tool-bar.attributeBackground: #000000

Emacs.tool-bar.attributeForeground: #ffffff

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs
>
> Emacs*Background: #000000
>
> Emacs*Dialog*background: #000000
>
> Emacs*Dialog*foreground: #ffffff
>
> Emacs*Foreground: #ffffff
>
> Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Background: #000000
>
> Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Foreground: #ffffff
>
> Emacs*backgroundToolBarColor: #000000
>
> Emacs*bottomToolBarShadowColor: #000000
>
> Emacs*menubar*background: #000000
>
> Emacs*menubar*foreground: #ffffff
>
> Emacs*popup*Background: #000000
>
> Emacs*popup*Foreground: #ffffff
>
> Emacs*topToolBarShadowColor: #000000
>
> Emacs.default.attributeBackground: #000000
>
> Emacs.default.attributeForeground: #ffffff
>
> Emacs.mode-line.attributeForeground: #ffffff
>
> Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeBackground: #000000
>
> Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeForeground: #ffffff
>
> Emacs.tool-bar.attributeBackground: #000000
>
> Emacs.tool-bar.attributeForeground: #ffffff

I suggest running "xrdb -remove", and deleting the program that is
setting those resources.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 1:07 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs
> > 
> > Emacs*Background: #000000
> > 
> > EmacsDialogbackground: #000000
> > 
> > EmacsDialogforeground: #ffffff
> > 
> > Emacs*Foreground: #ffffff
> > 
> > Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Background: #000000
> > 
> > Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Foreground: #ffffff
> > 
> > Emacs*backgroundToolBarColor: #000000
> > 
> > Emacs*bottomToolBarShadowColor: #000000
> > 
> > Emacsmenubarbackground: #000000
> > 
> > Emacsmenubarforeground: #ffffff
> > 
> > EmacspopupBackground: #000000
> > 
> > EmacspopupForeground: #ffffff
> > 
> > Emacs*topToolBarShadowColor: #000000
> > 
> > Emacs.default.attributeBackground: #000000
> > 
> > Emacs.default.attributeForeground: #ffffff
> > 
> > Emacs.mode-line.attributeForeground: #ffffff
> > 
> > Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeBackground: #000000
> > 
> > Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeForeground: #ffffff
> > 
> > Emacs.tool-bar.attributeBackground: #000000
> > 
> > Emacs.tool-bar.attributeForeground: #ffffff
> 
> 
> I suggest running "xrdb -remove", and deleting the program that is
> setting those resources.

"xrdb -remove" would remove everything.  Is it wise to call the command?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> "xrdb -remove" would remove everything.  Is it wise to call the command?

You asked to remove all X resources, and that's what the command does.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 2:01 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > "xrdb -remove" would remove everything. Is it wise to call the command?
> 
> 
> You asked to remove all X resources, and that's what the command does.

No.  I think there is no option but to remove everything.  And I do not know 
repercussions there might be.  My plan was only to remove the EMACS ones.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> No.  I think there is no option but to remove everything.  And I do not know 
> repercussions there might be.  My plan was only to remove the EMACS ones.

Are you carlmarcos <carlmarcos@tutanona.com>, wilnerthomas
<wilnerthomas@tutanota.com>, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>, and
possibly fatiparty <fatiparty@tutanota.com> by any chance?

Anyway, there is no easy way to do what you want, because resources that
do not specify the name `emacs' or `Emacs' can also affect Emacs.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Po Lu wrote:

> Are you carlmarcos <carlmarcos@tutanona.com>, wilnerthomas
> <wilnerthomas@tutanota.com>, goncholden
> <goncholden@protonmail.com>, and possibly fatiparty
> <fatiparty@tutanota.com> by any chance?

I know who I am but who are you
You're not looking like you used to

> Anyway, there is no easy way to do what you want, because
> resources that do not specify the name `emacs' or `Emacs'
> can also affect Emacs.

If we are talking ~/.Xresources, e.g., 

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.Xresources

then post that file, I think we'll be able to spot it.

Or do the favorite gmane.emacs.help trouble shoot method,
namely binary search.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 6:19 AM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Po Lu wrote:
> 
> > Are you carlmarcos carlmarcos@tutanona.com, wilnerthomas
> > wilnerthomas@tutanota.com, goncholden
> > goncholden@protonmail.com, and possibly fatiparty
> > fatiparty@tutanota.com by any chance?
> 
> 
> I know who I am but who are you
> You're not looking like you used to
> 
> > Anyway, there is no easy way to do what you want, because
> > resources that do not specify the name `emacs' or` Emacs'
> > can also affect Emacs.

Emacs should take user settings from init file rather than from anywhere else.
Otherwise fire vanilla emacs. 
 
> If we are talking ~/.Xresources, e.g.,
> 
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.Xresources
> 
> then post that file, I think we'll be able to spot it.

As I have been saying, that file does not exist in my Trisquel System.
 
> Or do the favorite gmane.emacs.help trouble shoot method,
> namely binary search.
> 
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> As I have been saying, that file does not exist in my Trisquel System.

And as I have been saying, you should read the X(7) manual page, and
look for those resources.

Or set inhibit-x-resources in early-init.el.  Take your pick.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 12:39 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > As I have been saying, that file does not exist in my Trisquel System.
> 
> 
> And as I have been saying, you should read the X(7) manual page, and
> look for those resources.
> 
> Or set inhibit-x-resources in early-init.el. Take your pick.

Because it is known that users are not fully in control of what form or
settings are specified in x-resources, emacs should stop forcing them.
What I see, is a stumbling block that experienced people can't get passed
because they are being limited by the past, that things have been this way
for decades.  I do not see the great designers like Guy Steele or Richard
Stallman at their prime anymore.
 

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 1:10 PM, uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote:


> ------- Original Message -------
> On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 12:39 PM, Po Lu luangruo@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> > 
> > > As I have been saying, that file does not exist in my Trisquel System.
> > 
> > And as I have been saying, you should read the X(7) manual page, and
> > look for those resources.
> > 
> > Or set inhibit-x-resources in early-init.el. Take your pick.

Po Lu, are you one of the people taking decisions on design and operation in emacs?
What could happen if one removes all the specified properties from the x-resource 
database?  Can you see my concern?  I have had no say in how these x-resource 
were specified.  I certainly have not specified them directly and consciously.

Although I understand that there are thousands of open bugs, and many are focused
on maintaining the system, there should be at least a person forward thinking
and focused on emacs design long term.  How many people rely on x-resources for
setting up their emacs system?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Jean Louis]

* uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> [2022-10-13 16:47]:
> Although I understand that there are thousands of open bugs, and many are focused
> on maintaining the system, there should be at least a person forward thinking
> and focused on emacs design long term.  How many people rely on x-resources for
> setting up their emacs system?

I use .Xdefaults and Emacs X resources

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

> I use .Xdefaults and Emacs X resources

Yeah ... that's what I meant, thanks, now I could google for
the text and found the whole thread at least, immediately.
Not bad ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> Because it is known that users are not fully in control of what form or
> settings are specified in x-resources, emacs should stop forcing them.

X resources are not forced by Emacs.  Set inhibit-x-resources in
early-init.el.

> What I see, is a stumbling block that experienced people can't get passed
> because they are being limited by the past, that things have been this way
> for decades.  I do not see the great designers like Guy Steele or Richard
> Stallman at their prime anymore.

Here, you're seeing the work of the great designer Joel McCormack, of
Digital WSL, at his prime.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 1:21 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > Because it is known that users are not fully in control of what form or
> > settings are specified in x-resources, emacs should stop forcing them.
> 
> 
> X resources are not forced by Emacs. Set inhibit-x-resources in
> early-init.el.
> 
> > What I see, is a stumbling block that experienced people can't get passed
> > because they are being limited by the past, that things have been this way
> > for decades. I do not see the great designers like Guy Steele or Richard
> > Stallman at their prime anymore.
> 
> 
> Here, you're seeing the work of the great designer Joel McCormack, of
> Digital WSL, at his prime.

That was in the 70's.  Who are the equivalent people today?  Maintainers
today typically maintain a system rather than really designing it in
interesting ways.  Although, I have to say that good work can only happen
with free software.  Se we have the advantage here.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

uzibalqa wrote:

>>> What I see, is a stumbling block that experienced people
>>> can't get passed because they are being limited by the
>>> past, that things have been this way for decades. I do not
>>> see the great designers like Guy Steele or Richard
>>> Stallman at their prime anymore.
>> 
>> Here, you're seeing the work of the great designer Joel
>> McCormack, of Digital WSL, at his prime.
>
> That was in the 70's. Who are the equivalent people today?

One can never answer where the "equivalent people" are in
a meaningful way. One cannot compare between fields and one
cannot compare one decade to another - well, this makes for
fun magazine articles perhaps, but it's just bogus if one
looks for a real answer in it. So don't do that!

That said, I think it's safe to say today's people are as good
or better in terms of technology: "development has gone
forward" as the tautology goes ...

But: was this more easy, or more difficult to do? Did it
require less, or more brilliance? Those questions do not
compute ...

Also note that the "70s people", if active still, are also as
much "today's people" as any 20 year old!

The first programmer in the world was probably some shaman in
a cave. He would cut symbol's out of the stone wall, then
inhale toxic fumes from the fireplace, and eat mushrooms he
had carefully collected in the wood. Then he would stare on
the inscriptions on the wall until he collapsed of mental and
physical fatigue - the program had then executed in his head,
and when he awoke with a big grin on his face he would have
found the answer to his question ...

Now, if you would grab him from the stone age to OUR age and
say, "Yes, uhm ... so today we don't use the cave wall
anymore, and not the fire either actually! Instead we have an
editor and a compiler, here, take a look ..." probably he
would just say, " ... okay!" and the next time you'd see him
he would stare into the monitor in deep thought writing
code ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Drew Adams]

> > That was in the 70's. Who are the equivalent people today?
> 
> One can never answer where the "equivalent people" are in
> a meaningful way. One cannot compare between fields and one
> cannot compare one decade to another - well, this makes for
> fun magazine articles perhaps, but it's just bogus if one
> looks for a real answer in it. So don't do that!
> 
> That said, I think it's safe to say today's people are as good
> or better in terms of technology: "development has gone
> forward" as the tautology goes ...
> 
> But: was this more easy, or more difficult to do? Did it
> require less, or more brilliance? Those questions do not
> compute ...
> 
> Also note that the "70s people", if active still, are also as
> much "today's people" as any 20 year old!
> 
> The first programmer in the world was probably some shaman in
> a cave. He would cut symbol's out of the stone wall, then
> inhale toxic fumes from the fireplace, and eat mushrooms he
> had carefully collected in the wood. Then he would stare on
> the inscriptions on the wall until he collapsed of mental and
> physical fatigue - the program had then executed in his head,
> and when he awoke with a big grin on his face he would have
> found the answer to his question ...
> 
> Now, if you would grab him from the stone age to OUR age and
> say, "Yes, uhm ... so today we don't use the cave wall
> anymore, and not the fire either actually! Instead we have an
> editor and a compiler, here, take a look ..." probably he
> would just say, " ... okay!" and the next time you'd see him
> he would stare into the monitor in deep thought writing
> code ...

All good.  But you left out the id of that
cave-shaman head-programmer: Zippy (also the
immortal antecedent who discovered the non
sequitur and domesticated the Doggy Diner).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zippy_the_Pinhead

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggie_Diner

https://v7.comicskingdom.net/comics/zippy-the-pinhead/2022-09-19/?widgetId=570

http://doggiediner.com/pages/zippy_00.html

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Pascal Quesseveur]

>"u" == uzibalqa  <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

  u> No.  I think there is no option but to remove everything.  And I
  u> do not know repercussions there might be.  My plan was only to
  u> remove the EMACS ones.

Perhaps you can use xrdq -query -all and redirect output in a file,
remove lines in that file that can affect emacs, reload the file with
xrdb -load ant then launch emacs. So you don't remove all resources
from your database. Step by step you can find the resources that cause
problems. When it's ok you can save the resources file.


-- 
Pascal Quesseveur
pquessev@gmail.com

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 2:03 PM, Pascal Quesseveur <pquessev@gmail.com> wrote:


> > "u" == uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> 
> u> No. I think there is no option but to remove everything. And I
> 
> u> do not know repercussions there might be. My plan was only to
> 
> u> remove the EMACS ones.
> 
> 
> Perhaps you can use xrdq -query -all and redirect output in a file,
> remove lines in that file that can affect emacs, reload the file with
> xrdb -load ant then launch emacs. So you don't remove all resources
> from your database. Step by step you can find the resources that cause
> problems. When it's ok you can save the resources file.
 
Hello Pascal.  Someone said that other parameters besides those tagged EMACS
could affect emacs configuration.  All this discussion stems from the problem\
that things are not completely understood or made fully understandable.  It's a 
possible approach nonetheless.  Have been asking what could happen if I remove all
x-resource setting from the database.  Would you reckon serious repercussions, a 
user might not be aware he is doing?

> --
> Pascal Quesseveur
> pquessev@gmail.com

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Pascal Quesseveur]

>"u" == uzibalqa  <uzibalqa@proton.me> a écrit :

  u> Hello Pascal.  Someone said that other parameters besides those
  u> tagged EMACS could affect emacs configuration.

It could happen that a general resource can affect emacs. If I'm not
mistaken if there is a general resource eg. *.background it could be
applied to a client if the client does not set the value by some
means.

  u> happen if I remove all x-resource setting from the database.
  u> Would you reckon serious repercussions, a user might not be aware
  u> he is doing?

It's hard to say because it depends on how other programs work.


-- 
Pascal Quesseveur
pquessev@gmail.com

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

I did as instructed 

xrdb -query -all > ~/.Xresources

Removed EMACS related settings, followed by

xrdb -load /home/hagbard/.Xresources

And still, same difficulty persists.  One does not get vanilla emacs.

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 3:04 PM, Pascal Quesseveur <pquessev@gmail.com> wrote:


> > "u" == uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me a écrit :
> 
> 
> u> Hello Pascal. Someone said that other parameters besides those
> 
> u> tagged EMACS could affect emacs configuration.
> 
> 
> It could happen that a general resource can affect emacs. If I'm not
> mistaken if there is a general resource eg. *.background it could be
> applied to a client if the client does not set the value by some
> means.
> 
> u> happen if I remove all x-resource setting from the database.
> 
> u> Would you reckon serious repercussions, a user might not be aware
> 
> u> he is doing?
> 
> 
> It's hard to say because it depends on how other programs work.
> 
> 
> --
> Pascal Quesseveur
> pquessev@gmail.com

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 3:04 AM
> From: "Pascal Quesseveur" <pquessev@gmail.com>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
> >"u" == uzibalqa  <uzibalqa@proton.me> a écrit :
> 
>   u> Hello Pascal.  Someone said that other parameters besides those
>   u> tagged EMACS could affect emacs configuration.
> 
> It could happen that a general resource can affect emacs. If I'm not
> mistaken if there is a general resource eg. *.background it could be
> applied to a client if the client does not set the value by some
> means.

You are completely correct Pascal.  Emacs does take *.background
and much more from whatever there is in the x-resource database.

Keeping in mind that the x-resource database can be modified by
programs the user does not fully have control of, I resist the 
school of thought that says that one should obey the x-resource
database whatever they are.  Using the x-resource database in
emacs blindly in unwise.
 
>   u> happen if I remove all x-resource setting from the database.
>   u> Would you reckon serious repercussions, a user might not be aware
>   u> he is doing?
> 
> It's hard to say because it depends on how other programs work.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Pascal Quesseveur
> pquessev@gmail.com
> 
> 
>

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> You are completely correct Pascal.  Emacs does take *.background
> and much more from whatever there is in the x-resource database.
>
> Keeping in mind that the x-resource database can be modified by
> programs the user does not fully have control of, I resist the 
> school of thought that says that one should obey the x-resource
> database whatever they are.  Using the x-resource database in
> emacs blindly in unwise.

Whether or not the X resource database (it is not called the
"x-resource" database) is used is not up to us to decide.  Every other
program that supports resources uses it, and users can always set
inhibit-x-resources.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 12:38 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: pquessev@gmail.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> > You are completely correct Pascal.  Emacs does take *.background
> > and much more from whatever there is in the x-resource database.
> >
> > Keeping in mind that the x-resource database can be modified by
> > programs the user does not fully have control of, I resist the
> > school of thought that says that one should obey the x-resource
> > database whatever they are.  Using the x-resource database in
> > emacs blindly in unwise.
>
> Whether or not the X resource database (it is not called the
> "x-resource" database) is used is not up to us to decide.  Every other
> program that supports resources uses it, and users can always set
> inhibit-x-resources.

Aren't X resource settings overriding the equivalent settings in Emacs
init files for parameters of the initial frame?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> Aren't X resource settings overriding the equivalent settings in Emacs
> init files for parameters of the initial frame?

No.  What the OP is complaining about is X resources providing defaults
when nothing is set in the user init file.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 3:19 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: pquessev@gmail.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> > Aren't X resource settings overriding the equivalent settings in Emacs
> > init files for parameters of the initial frame?
>
> No.  What the OP is complaining about is X resources providing defaults
> when nothing is set in the user init file.

It could be that the OP set up a black system theme, and emacs is taking
the information from there.  That's why he is seeing a dark emacs instance
when using the command "emacs".

Have no idea about what is the minimum settings for init file, that stops
settings form X resources taking effect.  There are so many ways information
can be obtained that it could be difficult to track.  Hence the confusion.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, October 14th, 2022 at 3:49 AM, Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:


> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 3:19 PM
> > From: "Po Lu" luangruo@yahoo.com
> > To: "Christopher Dimech" dimech@gmx.com
> > Cc: pquessev@gmail.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation
> > 
> > Christopher Dimech dimech@gmx.com writes:
> > 
> > > Aren't X resource settings overriding the equivalent settings in Emacs
> > > init files for parameters of the initial frame?
> > 
> > No. What the OP is complaining about is X resources providing defaults
> > when nothing is set in the user init file.
> 
> 
> It could be that the OP set up a black system theme, and emacs is taking
> the information from there. That's why he is seeing a dark emacs instance
> when using the command "emacs".
> 
> Have no idea about what is the minimum settings for init file, that stops
> settings form X resources taking effect. There are so many ways information
> can be obtained that it could be difficult to track. Hence the confusion.
 
I generally have my init file without inhibiting x-resources.  Because my init
file is broken, I got to rely on some default setup.  Would there be side-effects
if I always inhibit x-resources when using my init file?

The problem I have with using x-resources is that the text in the mode line
is extremely difficult to read.  Cannot see a thing.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 4:45 PM
> From: "uzibalqa" <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>, pquessev@gmail.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, October 14th, 2022 at 3:49 AM, Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 3:19 PM
> > > From: "Po Lu" luangruo@yahoo.com
> > > To: "Christopher Dimech" dimech@gmx.com
> > > Cc: pquessev@gmail.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation
> > >
> > > Christopher Dimech dimech@gmx.com writes:
> > >
> > > > Aren't X resource settings overriding the equivalent settings in Emacs
> > > > init files for parameters of the initial frame?
> > >
> > > No. What the OP is complaining about is X resources providing defaults
> > > when nothing is set in the user init file.
> >
> >
> > It could be that the OP set up a black system theme, and emacs is taking
> > the information from there. That's why he is seeing a dark emacs instance
> > when using the command "emacs".
> >
> > Have no idea about what is the minimum settings for init file, that stops
> > settings form X resources taking effect. There are so many ways information
> > can be obtained that it could be difficult to track. Hence the confusion.
>
> I generally have my init file without inhibiting x-resources.  Because my init
> file is broken, I got to rely on some default setup.  Would there be side-effects
> if I always inhibit x-resources when using my init file?
>
> The problem I have with using x-resources is that the text in the mode line
> is extremely difficult to read.  Cannot see a thing.

Perhaps we could do as follows.  Emacs could provide light-default.el and
dark-default.el for the case when users need a quick emacs setup that is
easy to read.  Might use modus-themes because I would think has the best
visibility for both light and dark theme.  And there would be no need
to inhibit x-resources as is standard.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> Perhaps we could do as follows.  Emacs could provide light-default.el and
> dark-default.el for the case when users need a quick emacs setup that is
> easy to read.  Might use modus-themes because I would think has the best
> visibility for both light and dark theme.  And there would be no need
> to inhibit x-resources as is standard.

How is the choice of default theme related in any way to the X resource
manager?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Po Lu wrote:

>> Perhaps we could do as follows. Emacs could provide
>> light-default.el and dark-default.el for the case when
>> users need a quick emacs setup that is easy to read.
>> Might use modus-themes because I would think has the best
>> visibility for both light and dark theme. And there would
>> be no need to inhibit x-resources as is standard.
>
> How is the choice of default theme related in any way to the
> X resource manager?

Well, here is one way to put it ...

(not mine, was used and posted by Dan Espen)

! This is a little funny, but I start XEmacs with 2 frames, one of them
! for mail, and I give it the resource name "xmh". This makes it start
! iconic:
Emacs*xmh.iconic: true

! Gnus-5 uses this:
Emacs.backgroundMode: dark
! Even though I said it was dark it picked this dark color:
Emacs.custom-face-forestgreen-default-default-nil-t-nil.attributeForeground:pink

Emacs*XlwMenu.selectColor: ForestGreen
Emacs*XmToggleButton.selectColor: ForestGreen
! Specify the colors of the various sub-widgets of the dialog boxes.
Emacs*dialog*Foreground: Black
! #A5C0C1 is a shade of blue
Emacs*dialog*Background: #A5C0C1
Emacs*dialog*XmTextField*Background: WhiteSmoke
Emacs*dialog*XmText*Background: WhiteSmoke
Emacs*dialog*XmList*Background: WhiteSmoke
! Xlw Scrollbar colors
Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Foreground: Gray30
Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Background: Gray75
Emacs*XmScrollBar.Foreground: Gray30
Emacs*XmScrollBar.Background: Gray75

! xemacs wants . after Emacs, at least for some things:
Emacs.modeline.attributeBackground: Wheat
Emacs.modeline.attributeForeground: Black

! The menubar is 8x13bold (fontlist is if motif widgets are used):
Emacs*menubar*font: -misc-*-bold-r-normal--13-120-75-75-*-80-iso8859-*
Emacs*menubar*fontlist: -misc-*-bold-r-normal--13-120-75-75-*-80-iso8859-*
Emacs*popup*font: -misc-*-bold-r-normal--15-140-75-75-*-90-iso8859-*

! DJE, 09/28/2009, try to set Emacs menubar colors, not working:
Emacs.menubar*foreground: white
! The "pane" part is for Lucid menus:
Emacs.pane.menubar.background: cornflowerblue
! With LessTif, there are sub-Widgets:
Emacs.pane.menubar.*.background: cornflowerblue

Emacs.menu*.foreground: white
Emacs.menu*.background: cornflowerblue
Emacs.dialog*.foreground: white
Emacs.dialog*.background: blue

! Customize the pointers:
!(default)Emacs*textPointer: xterm
Emacs*spacePointer: sailboat
Emacs*modeLinePointer: spider
Emacs*selectionPointer: trek
!(default)Emacs*gcPointer: watch

! Geometry changes based on screen size:
#if ( HEIGHT == 900 ) /* Traditional Sparc */
Emacs.geometry: 81x55+0+0
#elif ( HEIGHT == 1024 ) /* Sparc 21 inch */
Emacs.geometry: 81x63+0+0
#elif ( HEIGHT == 768 ) /* Exceed in 1024x768 mode */
Emacs.geometry: 81x46+0+0
#elif ( HEIGHT == 1200 ) /* My home machine, 1600x1200 use side x side layout
*/
! No good w. 10x20 Emacs*xmh.geometry: 81x68+757+105
Emacs.geometry: 81x56
#elif ( HEIGHT == 1600 ) /* My home machine rotated 1600x1200 */
Emacs.geometry: 81x70
#else /* I have no idea... */
Emacs.geometry: 81x40+0+0
#endif

! This is 10x20:
Emacs.default.attributeFont:
-*-*-medium-*-normal--20-200-75-75-*-100-iso8859-*
! Set these, otherwise emacs wont figure out the right size font:
Emacs.italic.attributeFont: -*-*-*-*-normal--*-160-75-75-m-50-iso8859-*
Emacs.bold.attributeFont: -*-*-*-*-normal--*-160-75-75-m-50-iso8859-*
Emacs.bold-italic.attributeFont: -*-*-*-*-normal--*-160-75-75-m-50-iso8859-*

!# 7x13 bold
Emacs.modeline.attributeFont:-misc-*-bold-r-normal--13-120-75-75-*-70-iso8859-*

! This one is a different size, one of the rare cases when it looks OK:
Emacs.man-heading.attributeFont:-adobe-courier-bold-r-normal--*-190-75-75-m-0-iso8859-1

Emacs.man-heading.attributeForeground:pink

! Overall color scheme:
Emacs*Background: black
Emacs*BackGround: black
Emacs*background: black
Emacs*Foreground: chartreuse
Emacs*ForeGround: chartreuse
Emacs*foreground: chartreuse

! Added this to suppress a warning:
Emacs.italic.attributeForeground: pink
Emacs.italic.attributeBackground: black
Emacs.bold-italic.attributeForeground: pink
Emacs.bold-italic.attributeBackground: black
Emacs.bold.attributeBackground: black

#ifdef COLOR
Emacs*XmScrollBar*Foreground: lavender
Emacs*XmScrollBar*Background: wheat
Emacs*cursorColor: white
! Defaults for gnus
Emacs.message-highlighted-header-contents.attributeForeground: coral
Emacs.message-cited-text.attributeForeground: lavender
! Defaults for search/selection
Emacs.isearch.attributeBackground: black
Emacs.isearch.attributeForeground: coral
Emacs.highlight.attributeForeground: red
Emacs.bold.attributeForeground: pink
! primary-selection changed to zmacs-region in 19.12
Emacs.zmacs-region.attributeBackground: DarkOrchid3
Emacs.primary-selection.attributeBackground: DarkOrchid3
Emacs.secondary-selection.attributeBackground: DarkOrchid2
! Menubar etc.
Emacs*menubar*Background: DeepSkyBlue1
Emacs*menubar*Foreground: black
Emacs*menubar.buttonForeground: pink
! Dont see this having any effect: dje
Emacs*popup*Background: lightblue
Emacs*popup*Foreground: black
Emacs*pointerForeground: white
Emacs*pointerBackground: red
! With 19.12, these generated warnings with * after Emacs...dje 6/30/95
Emacs.attributeForeground: green
Emacs.attributeBackground: black
#endif

! For those poor souls without color:
#ifndef COLOR
Emacs*ForeGround: black
Emacs*Foreground: black
Emacs*foreground: black
Emacs*BackGround: white
Emacs*Background: white
Emacs*background: white
Emacs*borderColor: black
Emacs*CursorColor: black
Emacs*cursorColor: black
Emacs*attributeForeground: black
Emacs*attributeBackground: white
Emacs.bold.attributeForeground: white
Emacs.highlight.attributeForeground: white
Emacs.isearch.attributeForeground: white
Emacs.menubar.Foreground: white
Emacs.modeline.Foreground: white
Emacs.modeline.attributeForeground: white
Emacs.modeline.attributeBackground: black
Emacs.pointerForeground: white
Emacs.popup.foreground: white
Emacs.primary-selection.attributeForeground: white
Emacs.secondary-selection.attributeForeground: white
Emacs.bold.attributeBackground: black
Emacs.highlight.attributeBackground: black
Emacs.isearch.attributeBackground: black
Emacs.menubar.Background: black
Emacs.pointerBackground: black
Emacs.popup.background: black
Emacs.primary-selection.attributeBackground: black
Emacs.secondary-selection.attributeBackground: black
Emacs*pointerColor: black
#endif

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2022-10-14 18:14]:
> ! This is a little funny, but I start XEmacs with 2 frames, one of them
> ! for mail, and I give it the resource name "xmh". This makes it start
> ! iconic:
> Emacs*xmh.iconic: true

Great. How do you give resource name?

-- 
Jean

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Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[tomas]

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On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 07:01:23PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2022-10-14 18:14]:
> > ! This is a little funny, but I start XEmacs with 2 frames, one of them
> > ! for mail, and I give it the resource name "xmh". This makes it start
> > ! iconic:
> > Emacs*xmh.iconic: true
> 
> Great. How do you give resource name?

Command line option --name. There are also ways to set individual resources
from the command line. See Appendix D1, aptly called "X Resources" in the
friendly Emacs manual next to you.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Jean Louis]

* tomas@tuxteam.de <tomas@tuxteam.de> [2022-10-14 21:45]:
> Command line option --name. There are also ways to set individual resources
> from the command line. See Appendix D1, aptly called "X Resources" in the
> friendly Emacs manual next to you.

Thanks much.

-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

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Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[tomas]

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On Sat, Oct 15, 2022 at 09:58:35AM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> * tomas@tuxteam.de <tomas@tuxteam.de> [2022-10-14 21:45]:
> > Command line option --name [...]

> Thanks much.

C'est moi :)
-- 
t

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Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 6:43 AM
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 07:01:23PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> > * Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2022-10-14 18:14]:
> > > ! This is a little funny, but I start XEmacs with 2 frames, one of them
> > > ! for mail, and I give it the resource name "xmh". This makes it start
> > > ! iconic:
> > > Emacs*xmh.iconic: true
> >
> > Great. How do you give resource name?
>
> Command line option --name. There are also ways to set individual resources
> from the command line. See Appendix D1, aptly called "X Resources" in the
> friendly Emacs manual next to you.

What are the basic settings from x resources that are used by emacs?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[tomas]

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On Sat, Oct 15, 2022 at 07:38:45PM +0200, Christopher Dimech wrote:

[...]

> What are the basic settings from x resources that are used by emacs?

See Appendix D.2 "Table of X Resources for Emacs" in your friendly
documentation.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> ! This is a little funny, but I start XEmacs with 2 frames, one
>> ! of them for mail, and I give it the resource name "xmh".
>> ! This makes it start iconic:
>>
>> Emacs*xmh.iconic: true
>
> Great. How do you give resource name?

Ha, too many ways to understand/answer that question ... :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Po Lu wrote:

> users can always set inhibit-x-resources.

`inhibit-x-resources' has too long a docstring ...

`inhibit-x-resources' is nil because with 'configure
--with-x-toolkit=no' that stuff doesn't make sense inhibiting
anyway :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2022-10-13 19:45]:
> You are completely correct Pascal.  Emacs does take *.background
> and much more from whatever there is in the x-resource database.
> 
> Keeping in mind that the x-resource database can be modified by
> programs the user does not fully have control of, I resist the 
> school of thought that says that one should obey the x-resource
> database whatever they are.  Using the x-resource database in
> emacs blindly in unwise.

It is not blindly as it is users' choice.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

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Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 4:14 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: pquessev@gmail.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
> * Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2022-10-13 19:45]:
> > You are completely correct Pascal.  Emacs does take *.background
> > and much more from whatever there is in the x-resource database.
> >
> > Keeping in mind that the x-resource database can be modified by
> > programs the user does not fully have control of, I resist the
> > school of thought that says that one should obey the x-resource
> > database whatever they are.  Using the x-resource database in
> > emacs blindly in unwise.
>
> It is not blindly as it is users' choice.

Am not so sure about that.  Perhaps for some people.  But I can see
many users using a configuration tool that takes a user selection.
Although in principle it is user-defined, the settings might not be
best for emacs display.  We might be expecting users to learn too much
for what they consider as just a tool like the many other gadgets they
use nowadays.  Have suggested the possibility that emacs also provides
defaults.el for light and dark theme.  At least they could start from
something better than is currently provided.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Dr Rainer Woitok]

Christopher,

On Thursday, 2022-10-13 18:41:33 +0200, you wrote:

> ...
> Keeping in mind that the x-resource database can be modified by
> programs the user does not fully have control of, I resist the 
> school of thought that says that one should obey the x-resource
> database whatever they are.  Using the x-resource database in
> emacs blindly in unwise.

<soapbox>
According to this locic it's absolutely unwise  to run ANY programme not
written by yourself under your userid  on ANY operating system not writ-
ten by yourself,  because doing so  could modify or destroy  ANY file in
your home directory!

After all the OPs problem arose from Trisquel (of all things!) providing
unwise (according to the OP) defaults and the OP not willing to read the
documentation or to _REALLY_ follow the advise received on this list!
</soapbox>

Sincerely,
  Rainer

PS: This is _definitely_ my last contribution to this thread.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

Dr Rainer Woitok <rainer.woitok@gmail.com> writes:

> According to this locic it's absolutely unwise  to run ANY programme not
> written by yourself under your userid  on ANY operating system not writ-
> ten by yourself,  because doing so  could modify or destroy  ANY file in
> your home directory!
>
> After all the OPs problem arose from Trisquel (of all things!) providing
> unwise (according to the OP) defaults and the OP not willing to read the
> documentation or to _REALLY_ follow the advise received on this list!

Exactly.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, October 14th, 2022 at 9:57 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> Dr Rainer Woitok rainer.woitok@gmail.com writes:
> 
> > According to this locic it's absolutely unwise to run ANY programme not
> > written by yourself under your userid on ANY operating system not writ-
> > ten by yourself, because doing so could modify or destroy ANY file in
> > your home directory!
> > 
> > After all the OPs problem arose from Trisquel (of all things!) providing
> > unwise (according to the OP) defaults and the OP not willing to read the
> > documentation or to REALLY follow the advise received on this list!
> 
> 
> Exactly.

Have not setup resources myself, just had my init file, which now in broken.
With the x-resources setup, I cannot see the text in the modeline.  It may
be something emacs relies on when there is no init file.  But think for a
moment the situation where the x-resources are not beneficial for the user
for a particular program.  Because I cannot see from where the x resources 
settings are coming from, I claimed those settings cannot be fully trusted
to produce a workable emacs session.  Could emacs have a set of init files
users can use in cases where they encounter problems and the x resources
settings are not suitable for some particular emacs feature?

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 12:30 AM
> From: "uzibalqa" <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> To: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "Dr Rainer Woitok" <rainer.woitok@gmail.com>, "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, October 14th, 2022 at 9:57 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Dr Rainer Woitok rainer.woitok@gmail.com writes:
> >
> > > According to this locic it's absolutely unwise to run ANY programme not
> > > written by yourself under your userid on ANY operating system not writ-
> > > ten by yourself, because doing so could modify or destroy ANY file in
> > > your home directory!
> > >
> > > After all the OPs problem arose from Trisquel (of all things!) providing
> > > unwise (according to the OP) defaults and the OP not willing to read the
> > > documentation or to REALLY follow the advise received on this list!
> >
> >
> > Exactly.
>
> Have not setup resources myself, just had my init file, which now in broken.
> With the x-resources setup, I cannot see the text in the modeline.  It may
> be something emacs relies on when there is no init file.  But think for a
> moment the situation where the x-resources are not beneficial for the user
> for a particular program.  Because I cannot see from where the x resources
> settings are coming from, I claimed those settings cannot be fully trusted
> to produce a workable emacs session.  Could emacs have a set of init files
> users can use in cases where they encounter problems and the x resources
> settings are not suitable for some particular emacs feature?

You can make a simple emacs configuration file crisis.el for the situation
when you break your init file for some reason or another.  At least you can
continue to work until you get things fixed.  Could include this in my project
but will take time for me to release it.  Meanwhile, make a simple crisis.el
yourself.

You can then call

emacs

or as has been said

emacs --no-x-resources

When you finally fix your init files in development, you can again call

emacs

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Jean Louis]

* uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> [2022-10-14 15:38]:
> Have not setup resources myself, just had my init file, which now in broken.
> With the x-resources setup, I cannot see the text in the modeline.  It may
> be something emacs relies on when there is no init file.  But think for a
> moment the situation where the x-resources are not beneficial for the user
> for a particular program.  Because I cannot see from where the x resources 
> settings are coming from, I claimed those settings cannot be fully trusted
> to produce a workable emacs session.  Could emacs have a set of init files
> users can use in cases where they encounter problems and the x resources
> settings are not suitable for some particular emacs feature?

If I remember well, I was using some fully free distributions endorsed
by FSF and had some distributions had problems starting Emacs by
default. Problem is that I do not remember which one exactly. I have
used several of them. Maybe it was in Trisquel, maybe in Hyperbola.

One time there was some Xresource default set by distribution
maintainers, and other time it was some Mate or Gnome settings messing
almost invisibly with user defaults.

Starting Emacs was not possible unless I have written single line of
settings.

It may not be that X resources are disturbing you, remove them. And
also see what is in /etc/X11/ if anything.

It may be that Mate or Gnome settings are such.

Questions:
----------

1. Which desktop environment do you use? Try changing it, I use IceWM
   window manager for speed as I can't use slow and bloated Gnome,
   Mate, KDE, etc. So tell me about it first. Because the desktop
   environment alone may be putting settings that prevent Emacs from
   starting. I have multi user networked computer, so I had to put
   those settings for multiple users, not just me. But then I changed
   distribution and Emacs is starting well now in Parabola, but I
   don't use default anyway.

   Change to some simple window manager.

2. Start Emacs from command line and make screenshot.

-- 
Jean

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Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Emanuel Berg]

Dr Rainer Woitok wrote:

> This is _definitely_ my last contribution to this thread.

Why?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 1:07 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "uzibalqa" <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [External] :  Running emacs without any customisation
>
> uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:
>
> > xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs
> >
> > Emacs*Background: #000000
> >
> > Emacs*Dialog*background: #000000
> >
> > Emacs*Dialog*foreground: #ffffff
> >
> > Emacs*Foreground: #ffffff
> >
> > Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Background: #000000
> >
> > Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Foreground: #ffffff
> >
> > Emacs*backgroundToolBarColor: #000000
> >
> > Emacs*bottomToolBarShadowColor: #000000
> >
> > Emacs*menubar*background: #000000
> >
> > Emacs*menubar*foreground: #ffffff
> >
> > Emacs*popup*Background: #000000
> >
> > Emacs*popup*Foreground: #ffffff
> >
> > Emacs*topToolBarShadowColor: #000000
> >
> > Emacs.default.attributeBackground: #000000
> >
> > Emacs.default.attributeForeground: #ffffff
> >
> > Emacs.mode-line.attributeForeground: #ffffff
> >
> > Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeBackground: #000000
> >
> > Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeForeground: #ffffff
> >
> > Emacs.tool-bar.attributeBackground: #000000
> >
> > Emacs.tool-bar.attributeForeground: #ffffff
>
> I suggest running "xrdb -remove", and deleting the program that is
> setting those resources.

Nobody knows the program that is setting those resources.

Re: [External] : Running emacs without any customisation

[Po Lu]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> It is Emacs who sets these resources, am I right?  

No, it is some other program.  Emacs does not modify the X resources
database itself.