Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Gerardo Moro]

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Basically that :)
I'm looking for some setup that allows me to open a menu with a list of
files and shortcut access keys to open them.

Probably somebody has done this before.

Thank you,
GM

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Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-22 13:02]:
> Basically that :)
> I'm looking for some setup that allows me to open a menu with a list of
> files and shortcut access keys to open them.
> 
> Probably somebody has done this before.

Let me invent something for you:

find Documents/Org/ -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" > meta-org.org \;

Instead of "Documents/Org/" you should put there your own top
directory where you keep Org files.

Then open meta-org.org

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Berry, Charles via General discussions about Org-mode.]

> On Nov 22, 2020, at 2:09 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> * Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-22 13:02]:
>> Basically that :)
>> I'm looking for some setup that allows me to open a menu with a list of
>> files and shortcut access keys to open them.
>> 
>> Probably somebody has done this before.
> 
> Let me invent something for you:
> 
> find Documents/Org/ -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" > meta-org.org \;
> 
> Instead of "Documents/Org/" you should put there your own top
> directory where you keep Org files.
> 
> Then open meta-org.org
> 

Nice.

Or for a one-off solution:

M-x find-dired RET Documents/Org/ RET -iname "*.org" RET

And use the dired buffer to navigate.

HTH,

Chuck

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Berry, Charles <ccberry@health.ucsd.edu> [2020-11-22 20:35]:
> > * Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-22 13:02]:
> >> Basically that :)
> >> I'm looking for some setup that allows me to open a menu with a list of
> >> files and shortcut access keys to open them.
> >> 
> >> Probably somebody has done this before.
> > 
> > Let me invent something for you:
> > 
> > find Documents/Org/ -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" > meta-org.org \;
> > 
> > Instead of "Documents/Org/" you should put there your own top
> > directory where you keep Org files.
> > 
> > Then open meta-org.org
> > 
> 
> Nice.
> 
> Or for a one-off solution:
> 
> M-x find-dired RET Documents/Org/ RET -iname "*.org" RET
> 
> And use the dired buffer to navigate.

When making meta-org files then users may annotate them better. But
myself I am not using those concepts. As you pointed I am just greping
and finding if I really need. 

My main Org file for business planning is in the register {C-x r j s}

(set-register ?s '(file . "~/Documents/Org/MAIN.org"))

Other log file is in `k' register, so I just put few in registers on
the key binding and that's it.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Gerardo Moro]

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Thanks to both of you,

find Documents/Org/ -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath
{}`][{}]]" > meta-org.org \;

Instead of "Documents/Org/" you should put there your own top
directory where you keep Org files.

Then open meta-org.org


I am confused. I don't understand the syntax. The line "find Documents/Org/
-type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" >
meta-org.org \;" should be a function of its own?

M-x find-dired RET Documents/Org/ RET -iname "*.org" RET

Once I press "RET", what does -iname mean? I am new in Emacs. You mean,
this is just using find-dired to browse the org files?
Thank you both!


El dom, 22 nov 2020 a las 19:35, Berry, Charles (<ccberry@health.ucsd.edu>)
escribió:

>
>
> > On Nov 22, 2020, at 2:09 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> >
> > * Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-22 13:02]:
> >> Basically that :)
> >> I'm looking for some setup that allows me to open a menu with a list of
> >> files and shortcut access keys to open them.
> >>
> >> Probably somebody has done this before.
> >
> > Let me invent something for you:
> >
> > find Documents/Org/ -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " *
> [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" > meta-org.org \;
> >
> > Instead of "Documents/Org/" you should put there your own top
> > directory where you keep Org files.
> >
> > Then open meta-org.org
> >
>
> Nice.
>
> Or for a one-off solution:
>
> M-x find-dired RET Documents/Org/ RET -iname "*.org" RET
>
> And use the dired buffer to navigate.
>
> HTH,
>
> Chuck
>

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Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-22 22:04]:
> Thanks to both of you,
> 
> find Documents/Org/ -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath
> {}`][{}]]" > meta-org.org \;
> 
> Instead of "Documents/Org/" you should put there your own top
> directory where you keep Org files.
> 
> Then open meta-org.org
> 
> 
> I am confused. I don't understand the syntax. The line "find Documents/Org/
> -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" >
> meta-org.org \;" should be a function of its own?

That was shell command. Like in bash, dash, zsh and similar.

> M-x find-dired RET Documents/Org/ RET -iname "*.org" RET
> 
> Once I press "RET", what does -iname mean? I am new in Emacs. You mean,
> this is just using find-dired to browse the org files?

For Emacs function it is like this one here:

;; setup here your main subtree
(setq my-org-dir "~/Documents/Org")

(defun my-meta-org ()
  "Opens my meta-org.org on the fly with hyperlinks to other Org files."
  (interactive)
  (let ((org-files (directory-files my-org-dir t ".org"))
	(meta-buffer "meta-org.org"))
    (with-temp-buffer-window meta-buffer nil nil
      (switch-to-buffer meta-buffer)
      (org-mode)
      (dolist (file org-files)
	(insert (format "- [[%s][%s]]\n" file (file-name-base file)))))))

then run:

M-x my-meta-org

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Berry, Charles via General discussions about Org-mode.]

> On Nov 22, 2020, at 11:03 AM, Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> M-x find-dired RET Documents/Org/ RET -iname "*.org" RET
> 
> Once I press "RET", what does -iname mean? I am new in Emacs. You mean, this is just using find-dired to browse the org files?
> 


See (info "(emacs) Dired and Find")

and find-dired's help string (i.e. C-h f find-dired RET)

the `-iname "*.org"' bit is used as ARG for which pursuing the man page for `find' is helpful.

HTH,

Chuck

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Gerardo Moro]

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Thanks so much, now it works when using that elisp function.
One thing yet:

> I am confused. I don't understand the syntax. The line "find
Documents/Org/
> -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" >
> meta-org.org \;" should be a function of its own?

That was shell command. Like in bash, dash, zsh and similar.

You mean a shell command to be executed in M-x shell-command? I did so, but
the output was

<*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" > meta-org.org \
Thanks,
GM

El dom, 22 nov 2020 a las 21:16, Jean Louis (<bugs@gnu.support>) escribió:

> * Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-22 22:04]:
> > Thanks to both of you,
> >
> > find Documents/Org/ -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " *
> [[file:`realpath
> > {}`][{}]]" > meta-org.org \;
> >
> > Instead of "Documents/Org/" you should put there your own top
> > directory where you keep Org files.
> >
> > Then open meta-org.org
> >
> >
> > I am confused. I don't understand the syntax. The line "find
> Documents/Org/
> > -type f -iname "*.org" -exec echo " * [[file:`realpath {}`][{}]]" >
> > meta-org.org \;" should be a function of its own?
>
> That was shell command. Like in bash, dash, zsh and similar.
>
> > M-x find-dired RET Documents/Org/ RET -iname "*.org" RET
> >
> > Once I press "RET", what does -iname mean? I am new in Emacs. You mean,
> > this is just using find-dired to browse the org files?
>
> For Emacs function it is like this one here:
>
> ;; setup here your main subtree
> (setq my-org-dir "~/Documents/Org")
>
> (defun my-meta-org ()
>   "Opens my meta-org.org on the fly with hyperlinks to other Org files."
>   (interactive)
>   (let ((org-files (directory-files my-org-dir t ".org"))
>         (meta-buffer "meta-org.org"))
>     (with-temp-buffer-window meta-buffer nil nil
>       (switch-to-buffer meta-buffer)
>       (org-mode)
>       (dolist (file org-files)
>         (insert (format "- [[%s][%s]]\n" file (file-name-base file)))))))
>
> then run:
>
> M-x my-meta-org
>
>

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Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-23 07:00]:
> Thanks so much, now it works when using that elisp function.

OK, it was your idea and I adopt the approach. If Elisp function
works, then shell command may not be important.

Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
real time.

It is useful to think of Org as a meta hyperdocument visualizer and as
a self-helping and self-producing system. That would mean that few
simple functions could automate collection of pieces of information
for further human annotation and expansion.

Memex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex

Memacs
https://github.com/novoid/Memacs

Semantic Synchrony
https://github.com/synchrony/smsn

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

> Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
> on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
> information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
> real time.

Also, one could quickly select one of multiple links under heading by
invoking C-c C-o with point at heading.

In the following example, C-c C-o would raise a buffer listing all the
links. Then, the links can be selected by pressing 1/2/3 (to open
first/second/third link):

*** NEXT <!point!> Commit all the changes
SCHEDULED: <2020-11-24 Tue .+1d>
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED: [2019-04-18 Thu 09:40]
:STYLE: habit
:REPEAT_TO_STATE: NEXT
:LOGGING: DONE(!)
:ARCHIVE: %S_archive_%y.org::* Habits
:ORG-TIME-BONUS: 0
:LAST_REPEAT: [2020-11-23 Mon 14:10]
:SHOWFROMDATE: 2020-11-09
:RESET_CHECK_BOXES: t
:END:

- [[file:~/Org/]]
- [[file:~/Knowledge_base/2016/Private/Get_started_with_org_mode/]]
- file:/home/yantar92/Git/emacs-config

Best,
Ihor

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-23 07:00]:
>> Thanks so much, now it works when using that elisp function.
>
> OK, it was your idea and I adopt the approach. If Elisp function
> works, then shell command may not be important.
>
> Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
> on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
> information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
> real time.
>
> It is useful to think of Org as a meta hyperdocument visualizer and as
> a self-helping and self-producing system. That would mean that few
> simple functions could automate collection of pieces of information
> for further human annotation and expansion.
>
> Memex
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex
>
> Memacs
> https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
>
> Semantic Synchrony
> https://github.com/synchrony/smsn

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Gerardo Moro]

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Excellent stuff.
One question: what does <!point!> do? Thanks

El lun, 23 nov 2020 a las 10:13, Ihor Radchenko (<yantar92@gmail.com>)
escribió:

> > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
> > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
> > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
> > real time.
>
> Also, one could quickly select one of multiple links under heading by
> invoking C-c C-o with point at heading.
>
> In the following example, C-c C-o would raise a buffer listing all the
> links. Then, the links can be selected by pressing 1/2/3 (to open
> first/second/third link):
>
> *** NEXT <!point!> Commit all the changes
> SCHEDULED: <2020-11-24 Tue .+1d>
> :PROPERTIES:
> :CREATED: [2019-04-18 Thu 09:40]
> :STYLE: habit
> :REPEAT_TO_STATE: NEXT
> :LOGGING: DONE(!)
> :ARCHIVE: %S_archive_%y.org::* Habits
> :ORG-TIME-BONUS: 0
> :LAST_REPEAT: [2020-11-23 Mon 14:10]
> :SHOWFROMDATE: 2020-11-09
> :RESET_CHECK_BOXES: t
> :END:
>
> - [[file:~/Org/]]
> - [[file:~/Knowledge_base/2016/Private/Get_started_with_org_mode/]]
> - file:/home/yantar92/Git/emacs-config
>
> Best,
> Ihor
>
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
> > * Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-23 07:00]:
> >> Thanks so much, now it works when using that elisp function.
> >
> > OK, it was your idea and I adopt the approach. If Elisp function
> > works, then shell command may not be important.
> >
> > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
> > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
> > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
> > real time.
> >
> > It is useful to think of Org as a meta hyperdocument visualizer and as
> > a self-helping and self-producing system. That would mean that few
> > simple functions could automate collection of pieces of information
> > for further human annotation and expansion.
> >
> > Memex
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex
> >
> > Memacs
> > https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
> >
> > Semantic Synchrony
> > https://github.com/synchrony/smsn
>

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Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

> One question: what does <!point!> do? Thanks

Just wanted to indicate the cursor position.

Best,
Ihor

Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> writes:

> Excellent stuff.
> One question: what does <!point!> do? Thanks
>
> El lun, 23 nov 2020 a las 10:13, Ihor Radchenko (<yantar92@gmail.com>)
> escribió:
>
>> > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
>> > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
>> > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
>> > real time.
>>
>> Also, one could quickly select one of multiple links under heading by
>> invoking C-c C-o with point at heading.
>>
>> In the following example, C-c C-o would raise a buffer listing all the
>> links. Then, the links can be selected by pressing 1/2/3 (to open
>> first/second/third link):
>>
>> *** NEXT <!point!> Commit all the changes
>> SCHEDULED: <2020-11-24 Tue .+1d>
>> :PROPERTIES:
>> :CREATED: [2019-04-18 Thu 09:40]
>> :STYLE: habit
>> :REPEAT_TO_STATE: NEXT
>> :LOGGING: DONE(!)
>> :ARCHIVE: %S_archive_%y.org::* Habits
>> :ORG-TIME-BONUS: 0
>> :LAST_REPEAT: [2020-11-23 Mon 14:10]
>> :SHOWFROMDATE: 2020-11-09
>> :RESET_CHECK_BOXES: t
>> :END:
>>
>> - [[file:~/Org/]]
>> - [[file:~/Knowledge_base/2016/Private/Get_started_with_org_mode/]]
>> - file:/home/yantar92/Git/emacs-config
>>
>> Best,
>> Ihor
>>
>> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>>
>> > * Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-23 07:00]:
>> >> Thanks so much, now it works when using that elisp function.
>> >
>> > OK, it was your idea and I adopt the approach. If Elisp function
>> > works, then shell command may not be important.
>> >
>> > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
>> > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
>> > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
>> > real time.
>> >
>> > It is useful to think of Org as a meta hyperdocument visualizer and as
>> > a self-helping and self-producing system. That would mean that few
>> > simple functions could automate collection of pieces of information
>> > for further human annotation and expansion.
>> >
>> > Memex
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex
>> >
>> > Memacs
>> > https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
>> >
>> > Semantic Synchrony
>> > https://github.com/synchrony/smsn
>>

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-23 11:14]:
> > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
> > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
> > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
> > real time.
> 
> Also, one could quickly select one of multiple links under heading by
> invoking C-c C-o with point at heading.

I did not know that. That is useful feature for Org.

Side note: there shall be feature in Org that quickly
captures the full link to the heading. Maybe it already
exists. Instead of constructing links by hand like entering
the file name, entering the heading for the link, there
shall by some automated feature:

Useful Feature A:
=================

- watching 2 windows with 2 Org files

- position cursor in first Org file to accept the hyperlink

- move to 2nd Org file any heading

- press key, and hyperlink is sent to 1st Org file properly
  formatted for specific heading in second Org file.

And then there shall be also collection of hyperlinks:

Useful feature B to collect hyperlinks similar to above:
========================================================

- user browses one Org file and thinks of collecting various
multiple hyperlinks as such need to be referenced in other
Org file and I refer to headings only for now.

- user would just invoke the key in any heading and message
  would be "Heading `** TODO Things' captured in the ring"

- user would be able to browse various Org files and collect
  hyperlinks in memory collection.

- After several collections user could then go to other Org
files and invoke key or command to insert the whole
collection of hyperlinks.

Do you find that useful? Who does?

That is how I am implementing information in the personal
program HyperScope, it will get published when polished and
ripe. 

Collections are similar to Dired marking, user can mark the
file and later decide what to do with it.

Org headings can be or could be marked with later action on
the whole collection of headings:

- re-filing all of them at once

- sending them all by email to other person (I do with Org)

- sending hyperlinks in other Org file (I do in HyperScope)

- creating new Org file with the collection of headings

- assigning properties to collection of headings, tasks,
todo or similar. I am often assigning tasks to people,
collection would help me re-assign tasks instead of doing it
one by one.

> In the following example, C-c C-o would raise a buffer listing all
> the links. Then, the links can be selected by pressing 1/2/3 (to
> open first/second/third link):

That is new to me and fine feature, thank you for reference. 

But this here, this chunk of various properties shows how
Org users wish Org to be way more structured, that Org wants
to become more than just plain text, it wants to become
database.

*** NEXT <!point!> Commit all the changes
SCHEDULED: <2020-11-24 Tue .+1d>
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED: [2019-04-18 Thu 09:40]
:STYLE: habit
:REPEAT_TO_STATE: NEXT
:LOGGING: DONE(!)
:ARCHIVE: %S_archive_%y.org::* Habits
:ORG-TIME-BONUS: 0
:LAST_REPEAT: [2020-11-23 Mon 14:10]
:SHOWFROMDATE: 2020-11-09
:RESET_CHECK_BOXES: t
:END:

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Gerardo Moro]

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Ok, thanks!

El lun, 23 nov 2020 a las 11:12, Ihor Radchenko (<yantar92@gmail.com>)
escribió:

> > One question: what does <!point!> do? Thanks
>
> Just wanted to indicate the cursor position.
>
> Best,
> Ihor
>
> Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Excellent stuff.
> > One question: what does <!point!> do? Thanks
> >
> > El lun, 23 nov 2020 a las 10:13, Ihor Radchenko (<yantar92@gmail.com>)
> > escribió:
> >
> >> > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
> >> > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
> >> > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
> >> > real time.
> >>
> >> Also, one could quickly select one of multiple links under heading by
> >> invoking C-c C-o with point at heading.
> >>
> >> In the following example, C-c C-o would raise a buffer listing all the
> >> links. Then, the links can be selected by pressing 1/2/3 (to open
> >> first/second/third link):
> >>
> >> *** NEXT <!point!> Commit all the changes
> >> SCHEDULED: <2020-11-24 Tue .+1d>
> >> :PROPERTIES:
> >> :CREATED: [2019-04-18 Thu 09:40]
> >> :STYLE: habit
> >> :REPEAT_TO_STATE: NEXT
> >> :LOGGING: DONE(!)
> >> :ARCHIVE: %S_archive_%y.org::* Habits
> >> :ORG-TIME-BONUS: 0
> >> :LAST_REPEAT: [2020-11-23 Mon 14:10]
> >> :SHOWFROMDATE: 2020-11-09
> >> :RESET_CHECK_BOXES: t
> >> :END:
> >>
> >> - [[file:~/Org/]]
> >> - [[file:~/Knowledge_base/2016/Private/Get_started_with_org_mode/]]
> >> - file:/home/yantar92/Git/emacs-config
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Ihor
> >>
> >> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> >>
> >> > * Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> [2020-11-23 07:00]:
> >> >> Thanks so much, now it works when using that elisp function.
> >> >
> >> > OK, it was your idea and I adopt the approach. If Elisp function
> >> > works, then shell command may not be important.
> >> >
> >> > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
> >> > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
> >> > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
> >> > real time.
> >> >
> >> > It is useful to think of Org as a meta hyperdocument visualizer and as
> >> > a self-helping and self-producing system. That would mean that few
> >> > simple functions could automate collection of pieces of information
> >> > for further human annotation and expansion.
> >> >
> >> > Memex
> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex
> >> >
> >> > Memacs
> >> > https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
> >> >
> >> > Semantic Synchrony
> >> > https://github.com/synchrony/smsn
> >>
>

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Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Diego Zamboni]

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Hi Gerardo,

Apart from what others have suggested, what you can do if you have a fixed
list of files you want to quickly access, you could manually define
keybindings for them. I have four main files where I capture things, so I
define a submenu that allows me to access them quickly:

(note: I got this idea originally from Sacha Chua's
https://sachachua.com/blog/2015/02/learn-take-notes-efficiently-org-mode/)

First, I define a helper function to define keybindings that open files.
Note that this requires lexical binding to be enabled, so that  the
=lambda= creates a closure, otherwise the keybindings don't work.

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(defun zz/add-file-keybinding (key file &optional desc)
  (let ((key key)
        (file file)
        (desc desc))
    (map! :desc (or desc file)
          key
          (lambda () (interactive) (find-file file)))))
#+end_src

(note #2: the map! macro is Doom Emacs-specific, should be replaced with
`bind-key` or equivalent if you are not using Doom)

Now I define keybindings to access my commonly-used org files.

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(zz/add-file-keybinding "C-c z w" "~/Work/work.org.gpg" "work.org")
(zz/add-file-keybinding "C-c z i" "~/org/ideas.org" "ideas.org")
(zz/add-file-keybinding "C-c z p" "~/org/projects.org" "projects.org")
(zz/add-file-keybinding "C-c z d" "~/org/diary.org" "diary.org")
#+end_src

This results in a submenu bound to "C-c z" which looks like this, and which
allows me to quickly open my files:

[image: image.png]

--Diego


On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 11:01 AM Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Basically that :)
> I'm looking for some setup that allows me to open a menu with a list of
> files and shortcut access keys to open them.
>
> Probably somebody has done this before.
>
> Thank you,
> GM
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2936 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: image.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 12302 bytes --]

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Diego Zamboni <diego@zzamboni.org> [2020-11-23 12:53]:
> Hi Gerardo,
> 
> Apart from what others have suggested, what you can do if you have a fixed
> list of files you want to quickly access, you could manually define
> keybindings for them. I have four main files where I capture things, so I
> define a submenu that allows me to access them quickly:
> 
> (note: I got this idea originally from Sacha Chua's
> https://sachachua.com/blog/2015/02/learn-take-notes-efficiently-org-mode/)
> 
> First, I define a helper function to define keybindings that open files.
> Note that this requires lexical binding to be enabled, so that  the
> =lambda= creates a closure, otherwise the keybindings don't work.
> 
> #+begin_src emacs-lisp
> (defun zz/add-file-keybinding (key file &optional desc)
>   (let ((key key)
>         (file file)
>         (desc desc))
>     (map! :desc (or desc file)
>           key
>           (lambda () (interactive) (find-file file)))))
> #+end_src
> 
> (note #2: the map! macro is Doom Emacs-specific, should be replaced with
> `bind-key` or equivalent if you are not using Doom)
> 
> Now I define keybindings to access my commonly-used org files.
> 
> #+begin_src emacs-lisp
> (zz/add-file-keybinding "C-c z w" "~/Work/work.org.gpg" "work.org")
> (zz/add-file-keybinding "C-c z i" "~/org/ideas.org" "ideas.org")
> (zz/add-file-keybinding "C-c z p" "~/org/projects.org" "projects.org")
> (zz/add-file-keybinding "C-c z d" "~/org/diary.org" "diary.org")
> #+end_src

Another idea how to quickly access those files could be with
completion function which could also be bound to a key.

(defun my-org-files ()
  (interactive)
  (let* ((list '(("Work" . "~/Work/work.org.gpg")
		 ("Ideas" . "~/org/ideas.org")
		 ("Projects" . "~/org/projects.org")
		 ("Diary" . "~/org/diary.org")))
	 (completion-ignore-case t)
	 (file (completing-read "My files: " list))
	 (file (cdr (assoc file list))))
    (find-file file)))

or function that finds all org files and offers completion on such:

(defun my-all-org-files ()
  (interactive)
  (let* ((my-org-dir "~/Documents/Org")
	 (all-org (directory-files my-org-dir t "\.org$"))
	 (alist '())
	 (all-org-alist (dolist (org all-org alist)
			  (setf (alist-get (file-name-base org) alist) org)))
	 (completion-ignore-case t)
	 (file (completing-read "My files: " all-org-alist))
	 (file (cdr (assoc file alist))))
    (find-file file)))

M-x my-all-org-files

Even better is when you turn on some visual completion package such as

M-x ivy-mode

or

M-x helm-mode

package ivy is in GNU ELPA

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Gerardo Moro]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3866 bytes --]

 > Do you find that useful? Who does?
I definitely think it's very, very useful!
I constantly leave tabs open or use bookmarks, but it'd be great to add
them to ORG with a timestamp to watch later.
This way I wouldn't forget about them and they wouldn't take memory on the
browser if I don't bookmark them.


El lun, 23 nov 2020 a las 12:59, Jean Louis (<bugs@gnu.support>) escribió:

> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-23 11:14]:
> > > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
> > > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
> > > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
> > > real time.
> >
> > Also, one could quickly select one of multiple links under heading by
> > invoking C-c C-o with point at heading.
>
> I did not know that. That is useful feature for Org.
>
> Side note: there shall be feature in Org that quickly
> captures the full link to the heading. Maybe it already
> exists. Instead of constructing links by hand like entering
> the file name, entering the heading for the link, there
> shall by some automated feature:
>
> Useful Feature A:
> =================
>
> - watching 2 windows with 2 Org files
>
> - position cursor in first Org file to accept the hyperlink
>
> - move to 2nd Org file any heading
>
> - press key, and hyperlink is sent to 1st Org file properly
>   formatted for specific heading in second Org file.
>
> And then there shall be also collection of hyperlinks:
>
> Useful feature B to collect hyperlinks similar to above:
> ========================================================
>
> - user browses one Org file and thinks of collecting various
> multiple hyperlinks as such need to be referenced in other
> Org file and I refer to headings only for now.
>
> - user would just invoke the key in any heading and message
>   would be "Heading `** TODO Things' captured in the ring"
>
> - user would be able to browse various Org files and collect
>   hyperlinks in memory collection.
>
> - After several collections user could then go to other Org
> files and invoke key or command to insert the whole
> collection of hyperlinks.
>
> Do you find that useful? Who does?
>
> That is how I am implementing information in the personal
> program HyperScope, it will get published when polished and
> ripe.
>
> Collections are similar to Dired marking, user can mark the
> file and later decide what to do with it.
>
> Org headings can be or could be marked with later action on
> the whole collection of headings:
>
> - re-filing all of them at once
>
> - sending them all by email to other person (I do with Org)
>
> - sending hyperlinks in other Org file (I do in HyperScope)
>
> - creating new Org file with the collection of headings
>
> - assigning properties to collection of headings, tasks,
> todo or similar. I am often assigning tasks to people,
> collection would help me re-assign tasks instead of doing it
> one by one.
>
> > In the following example, C-c C-o would raise a buffer listing all
> > the links. Then, the links can be selected by pressing 1/2/3 (to
> > open first/second/third link):
>
> That is new to me and fine feature, thank you for reference.
>
> But this here, this chunk of various properties shows how
> Org users wish Org to be way more structured, that Org wants
> to become more than just plain text, it wants to become
> database.
>
> *** NEXT <!point!> Commit all the changes
> SCHEDULED: <2020-11-24 Tue .+1d>
> :PROPERTIES:
> :CREATED: [2019-04-18 Thu 09:40]
> :STYLE: habit
> :REPEAT_TO_STATE: NEXT
> :LOGGING: DONE(!)
> :ARCHIVE: %S_archive_%y.org::* Habits
> :ORG-TIME-BONUS: 0
> :LAST_REPEAT: [2020-11-23 Mon 14:10]
> :SHOWFROMDATE: 2020-11-09
> :RESET_CHECK_BOXES: t
> :END:
>
>

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Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

> Side note: there shall be feature in Org that quickly
> captures the full link to the heading. Maybe it already
> exists. Instead of constructing links by hand like entering
> the file name, entering the heading for the link, there
> shall by some automated feature:

See org-store-link and org-insert-link. org-store-link stores link in a
link ring and the link/links can be later inserted using
org-insert-link.

> Org headings can be or could be marked with later action on
> the whole collection of headings:

See bulk commands in agenda (Bulk remote editing selected entries):
https://orgmode.org/manual/Agenda-Commands.html

Manually picking headlines to put into agenda is not currently possible
in org-mode, but one can volunteer to do it. It is not too hard to
implement. Patches are welcome.

> - re-filing all of them at once

built-in

> - sending them all by email to other person (I do with Org)

> - sending hyperlinks in other Org file (I do in HyperScope)

> - creating new Org file with the collection of headings

not implemented, but see org-agenda-bulk-custom-functions for extending
the built-in functionality

> - assigning properties to collection of headings, tasks,
> todo or similar. I am often assigning tasks to people,
> collection would help me re-assign tasks instead of doing it
> one by one.

build-in bulk commands provide a way to assign todo keywords or tags.

> But this here, this chunk of various properties shows how
> Org users wish Org to be way more structured, that Org wants
> to become more than just plain text, it wants to become
> database.

As usual, it's user's choice how to use Org. There are built-in tools
that require storing metadata and org-mode devs chose to store
everything as plain text. If user does not want to use this feature, the
user is free to not use it or use alternative ways to store metadata (as
it is done in org-roam, for example).

Best,
Ihor

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-23 11:14]:
>> > Org provides hyperlinks and that useful feature may be used as
>> > on-the-fly information visualizer for many groups of smaller pieces of
>> > information which could be obtained from some structure or found in
>> > real time.
>> 
>> Also, one could quickly select one of multiple links under heading by
>> invoking C-c C-o with point at heading.
>
> I did not know that. That is useful feature for Org.
>
> Side note: there shall be feature in Org that quickly
> captures the full link to the heading. Maybe it already
> exists. Instead of constructing links by hand like entering
> the file name, entering the heading for the link, there
> shall by some automated feature:
>
> Useful Feature A:
> =================
>
> - watching 2 windows with 2 Org files
>
> - position cursor in first Org file to accept the hyperlink
>
> - move to 2nd Org file any heading
>
> - press key, and hyperlink is sent to 1st Org file properly
>   formatted for specific heading in second Org file.
>
> And then there shall be also collection of hyperlinks:
>
> Useful feature B to collect hyperlinks similar to above:
> ========================================================
>
> - user browses one Org file and thinks of collecting various
> multiple hyperlinks as such need to be referenced in other
> Org file and I refer to headings only for now.
>
> - user would just invoke the key in any heading and message
>   would be "Heading `** TODO Things' captured in the ring"
>
> - user would be able to browse various Org files and collect
>   hyperlinks in memory collection.
>
> - After several collections user could then go to other Org
> files and invoke key or command to insert the whole
> collection of hyperlinks.
>
> Do you find that useful? Who does?
>
> That is how I am implementing information in the personal
> program HyperScope, it will get published when polished and
> ripe. 
>
> Collections are similar to Dired marking, user can mark the
> file and later decide what to do with it.
>
> Org headings can be or could be marked with later action on
> the whole collection of headings:
>
> - re-filing all of them at once
>
> - sending them all by email to other person (I do with Org)
>
> - sending hyperlinks in other Org file (I do in HyperScope)
>
> - creating new Org file with the collection of headings
>
> - assigning properties to collection of headings, tasks,
> todo or similar. I am often assigning tasks to people,
> collection would help me re-assign tasks instead of doing it
> one by one.
>
>> In the following example, C-c C-o would raise a buffer listing all
>> the links. Then, the links can be selected by pressing 1/2/3 (to
>> open first/second/third link):
>
> That is new to me and fine feature, thank you for reference. 
>
> But this here, this chunk of various properties shows how
> Org users wish Org to be way more structured, that Org wants
> to become more than just plain text, it wants to become
> database.
>
> *** NEXT <!point!> Commit all the changes
> SCHEDULED: <2020-11-24 Tue .+1d>
> :PROPERTIES:
> :CREATED: [2019-04-18 Thu 09:40]
> :STYLE: habit
> :REPEAT_TO_STATE: NEXT
> :LOGGING: DONE(!)
> :ARCHIVE: %S_archive_%y.org::* Habits
> :ORG-TIME-BONUS: 0
> :LAST_REPEAT: [2020-11-23 Mon 14:10]
> :SHOWFROMDATE: 2020-11-09
> :RESET_CHECK_BOXES: t
> :END:

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

> I definitely think it's very, very useful!
> I constantly leave tabs open or use bookmarks, but it'd be great to add
> them to ORG with a timestamp to watch later.
> This way I wouldn't forget about them and they wouldn't take memory on the
> browser if I don't bookmark them.

It is possible and many people use it (including me). Useful links:
- https://orgmode.org/manual/Capture.html#Capture
- https://orgmode.org/manual/Protocols.html#Protocols
- https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref

Best,
Ihor


Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> writes:

>  > Do you find that useful? Who does?
> I definitely think it's very, very useful!
> I constantly leave tabs open or use bookmarks, but it'd be great to add
> them to ORG with a timestamp to watch later.
> This way I wouldn't forget about them and they wouldn't take memory on the
> browser if I don't bookmark them.
>
>

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Gerardo Moro]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 282 bytes --]

Hi,

See org-store-link and org-insert-link. org-store-link stores link in a
> link ring and the link/links can be later inserted using
> org-insert-link.
>

org-store-link would work only within Emacs, not for the case of copying
http links in the browser, right?


org-store-link

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Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[John Sturdy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 784 bytes --]

I've got a rather specialized version of that at
https://github.com/hillwithsmallfields/JCGS-emacs/blob/master/special-setups/tasks/org-agenda-kiosk.el

It's aimed at navigating a collection of org-mode files via the numeric
keypad only, and I wrote it to go with some custom hardware I made (a
screen and keypadded embedded in a corkboard, so I can keep all my "things
to do" lists together, whether on paper or on the computer), hence it
having mappings for a keypad rotated 90degrees!

__John

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 10:02 AM Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Basically that :)
> I'm looking for some setup that allows me to open a menu with a list of
> files and shortcut access keys to open them.
>
> Probably somebody has done this before.
>
> Thank you,
> GM
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1349 bytes --]

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

> org-store-link would work only within Emacs, not for the case of copying
> http links in the browser, right?

Indeed. If you want to copy "[[url][title]]" string directly from
browser, you should probably write a simple bookmarklet. I have seen
someone sharing it in reddit, but cannot find the comment anymore.
In any case, you might look at
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5046972/copy-text-to-clipboard-from-bookmarklet
for ideas how to do it.

Also, you can capture webpage as a heading using org-capture +
org-protocol:
1. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/org-capture/
2. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/org-capture/kkkjlfejijcjgjllecmnejhogpbcigdc
3. https://seds.nl/notes/orgmode-firefox-bookmark/
4. https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref (shameless plug)

Or you can write a custom org-capture handler that invokes org-store-link

Best,
Ihor

Gerardo Moro <gerardomoro37@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi,
>
> See org-store-link and org-insert-link. org-store-link stores link in a
>> link ring and the link/links can be later inserted using
>> org-insert-link.
>>
>
> org-store-link would work only within Emacs, not for the case of copying
> http links in the browser, right?
>
>
> org-store-link

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Detlef Steuer]

Am Tue, 24 Nov 2020 09:53:15 +0000
schrieb John Sturdy <jcg.sturdy@gmail.com>:

> It's aimed at navigating a collection of org-mode files via the
> numeric keypad only, and I wrote it to go with some custom hardware I
> made (a screen and keypadded embedded in a corkboard, so I can keep
> all my "things to do" lists together, whether on paper or on the
> computer), hence it having mappings for a keypad rotated 90degrees!


Would you mind to share a picture? Or two?

Detlef

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Detlef Steuer <steuer@hsu-hh.de> [2020-11-24 13:07]:
> Am Tue, 24 Nov 2020 09:53:15 +0000
> schrieb John Sturdy <jcg.sturdy@gmail.com>:
> 
> > It's aimed at navigating a collection of org-mode files via the
> > numeric keypad only, and I wrote it to go with some custom hardware I
> > made (a screen and keypadded embedded in a corkboard, so I can keep
> > all my "things to do" lists together, whether on paper or on the
> > computer), hence it having mappings for a keypad rotated 90degrees!
> 
> 
> Would you mind to share a picture? Or two?

I wanted to tell the same. I think that concept of various keys
separate from main keyboard is great.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* John Sturdy <jcg.sturdy@gmail.com> [2020-11-24 12:54]:
> I've got a rather specialized version of that at
>
https://github.com/hillwithsmallfields/JCGS-emacs/blob/master/special-setups/tasks/org-agenda-kiosk.el

> It's aimed at navigating a collection of org-mode files via the numeric
> keypad only, and I wrote it to go with some custom hardware I made (a
> screen and keypadded embedded in a corkboard, so I can keep all my "things
> to do" lists together, whether on paper or on the computer), hence it
> having mappings for a keypad rotated 90degrees!

How does that work to keep paper and computer stuff together?

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-24 12:59]:
> > org-store-link would work only within Emacs, not for the case of copying
> > http links in the browser, right?
> 
> Indeed. If you want to copy "[[url][title]]" string directly from
> browser, you should probably write a simple bookmarklet. I have seen
> someone sharing it in reddit, but cannot find the comment anymore.
> In any case, you might look at
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5046972/copy-text-to-clipboard-from-bookmarklet
> for ideas how to do it.

Yes, thank you for pointers.

What I would like to do is to execute external program from browser as
such program will give me more than just capturing the TITLE and URL,
data that browser has, because I need external data that browser does
not have such as annotation or a note to the bookmark.

So I could maybe use org-capture as you said. Then I could annotate
the bookmark in description and later by one click move everything
into Hyperscope database.

> Also, you can capture webpage as a heading using org-capture +
> org-protocol:
> 1. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/org-capture

I think this one could work. But it does not work on iceweasel-uxp
from fully free OS Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre. It could be installed on
the GNU IceCat. Firefox I am not using directly within the OS due to
its problematic tradeark issues and I like GNU IceCat as it has by
default some good features like quickly disabling Javascript and
taking care of non-free Software.

I have tried, now I am getting error:

Greedy org-protocol handler.  Killing client.

eeeee.

After more setups insights, I could make it work. It works quite nice!

Now I hope that I can use org-capture to invoke other functions from
external programs.

> 2. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/org-capture/kkkjlfejijcjgjllecmnejhogpbcigdc

Chrome is no go here as I do not like getting tracked by Google. But
it is similar extension

> 3. https://seds.nl/notes/orgmode-firefox-bookmark/

That is yet another tip how to capture, and I can use it probably with
the other add on, or basically without add on, how I understand.

> 4. https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref (shameless plug)

Even more enhancements there. That is great. 

> Or you can write a custom org-capture handler that invokes
> org-store-link

I would like to use org-capture to get data while invoking some
Elisp, that I can capture into database. Do you think that is
possible straight somehow?

That capture does not go into Org but that I can redirect it to other
elisp function?

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-24 12:59]:
> > org-store-link would work only within Emacs, not for the case of copying
> > http links in the browser, right?
> 
> Indeed. If you want to copy "[[url][title]]" string directly from
> browser, you should probably write a simple bookmarklet. I have seen
> someone sharing it in reddit, but cannot find the comment anymore.
> In any case, you might look at
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5046972/copy-text-to-clipboard-from-bookmarklet
> for ideas how to do it.
> 
> Also, you can capture webpage as a heading using org-capture +
> org-protocol:
> 1. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/org-capture/
> 2. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/org-capture/kkkjlfejijcjgjllecmnejhogpbcigdc
> 3. https://seds.nl/notes/orgmode-firefox-bookmark/
> 4. https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref (shameless plug)
> 
> Or you can write a custom org-capture handler that invokes
> org-store-link

Those references were very helpful.

Org has already some nice capturing abilities, like rmail, one can
capture (I guess) the link to message ID, or URL in eww and so on.

I hope now that org-protocol is generic and does not only do stuff for
Org that I can capture other things too.

But in general I wonder how does that bookmarklet work. I was looking
inside and I think it works by converting or redirecting the page to
new protocol like http:// only this time org-protocol:// and then
based on that protocol it is opening a handler. If somebody knows if
this is correct, let me know.

As this feature then can be used then that I make protocol for myself,
that I can capture into the database, only not with org-protocol.

After inspection I can see that org-protocol.el have been made
generic! Bingo!

Hide Org Protocol Protocol Alist:
INS
    State : STANDARD.
   Register custom handlers for org-protocol. Hide

So that means that little different captures can be made into anything
and not only to Org.

Thank you for hints, without it I would not soon find out about that.

Jean

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

> Now I hope that I can use org-capture to invoke other functions from
> external programs.

In general, you can define your own protocols. See
org-protocol-protocol-alist docstring for details how to define custom
protocols executing arbitrary elisp code.

> I would like to use org-capture to get data while invoking some
> Elisp, that I can capture into database. Do you think that is
> possible straight somehow?
>
> That capture does not go into Org but that I can redirect it to other
> elisp function?

You can add your own function to org-capture-prepare-finalize-hook and
do whatever you want with the captured text, like passing it to external
program. Once done, you can just call (org-capture-kill) to abort the
capture and not save the data to org.

> Chrome is no go here as I do not like getting tracked by Google. But
> it is similar extension

I just listed the possibilities. I personally use qutebrowser where I
can directly call external scripts.

> That is yet another tip how to capture, and I can use it probably with
> the other add on, or basically without add on, how I understand.

Sure, bookmarklet should be the most universal solution working with
pretty much all browsers.

Best,
Ihor

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-24 12:59]:
>> > org-store-link would work only within Emacs, not for the case of copying
>> > http links in the browser, right?
>> 
>> Indeed. If you want to copy "[[url][title]]" string directly from
>> browser, you should probably write a simple bookmarklet. I have seen
>> someone sharing it in reddit, but cannot find the comment anymore.
>> In any case, you might look at
>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5046972/copy-text-to-clipboard-from-bookmarklet
>> for ideas how to do it.
>
> Yes, thank you for pointers.
>
> What I would like to do is to execute external program from browser as
> such program will give me more than just capturing the TITLE and URL,
> data that browser has, because I need external data that browser does
> not have such as annotation or a note to the bookmark.
>
> So I could maybe use org-capture as you said. Then I could annotate
> the bookmark in description and later by one click move everything
> into Hyperscope database.
>
>> Also, you can capture webpage as a heading using org-capture +
>> org-protocol:
>> 1. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/org-capture
>
> I think this one could work. But it does not work on iceweasel-uxp
> from fully free OS Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre. It could be installed on
> the GNU IceCat. Firefox I am not using directly within the OS due to
> its problematic tradeark issues and I like GNU IceCat as it has by
> default some good features like quickly disabling Javascript and
> taking care of non-free Software.
>
> I have tried, now I am getting error:
>
> Greedy org-protocol handler.  Killing client.
>
> eeeee.
>
> After more setups insights, I could make it work. It works quite nice!
>
> Now I hope that I can use org-capture to invoke other functions from
> external programs.
>
>> 2. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/org-capture/kkkjlfejijcjgjllecmnejhogpbcigdc
>
> Chrome is no go here as I do not like getting tracked by Google. But
> it is similar extension
>
>> 3. https://seds.nl/notes/orgmode-firefox-bookmark/
>
> That is yet another tip how to capture, and I can use it probably with
> the other add on, or basically without add on, how I understand.
>
>> 4. https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref (shameless plug)
>
> Even more enhancements there. That is great. 
>
>> Or you can write a custom org-capture handler that invokes
>> org-store-link
>
> I would like to use org-capture to get data while invoking some
> Elisp, that I can capture into database. Do you think that is
> possible straight somehow?
>
> That capture does not go into Org but that I can redirect it to other
> elisp function?

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-25 06:43]:
> > Now I hope that I can use org-capture to invoke other functions from
> > external programs.
> 
> In general, you can define your own protocols. See
> org-protocol-protocol-alist docstring for details how to define custom
> protocols executing arbitrary elisp code.

Thank you Ihor. I know this all could be in the manual, and I read
manuals all the time but never read it fully. Without these references
I would not easily discover those useful functions.

When there is reference such as URL, I am actually following it and
researching the subject. Few minutes research here and then are
sparing me time on repetitive tasks in futures. 

> > I would like to use org-capture to get data while invoking some
> > Elisp, that I can capture into database. Do you think that is
> > possible straight somehow?
> >
> > That capture does not go into Org but that I can redirect it to other
> > elisp function?
> 
> You can add your own function to org-capture-prepare-finalize-hook and
> do whatever you want with the captured text, like passing it to external
> program. Once done, you can just call (org-capture-kill) to abort the
> capture and not save the data to org.
> 
> > Chrome is no go here as I do not like getting tracked by Google. But
> > it is similar extension
> 
> I just listed the possibilities. I personally use qutebrowser where I
> can directly call external scripts.

While I did use qutebrowser many times, did not know about the
scripts. Please state some examples how you call those external
scripts. I am interested if:

- qutebrowser, once HTML is loaded or any file, can transmit this file
  in a script to external program to parse it, collect meta data and
  index it somewhere

- in particular I would be interested if qutebrowser could be used to
  convert the HTML on the fly to OPML by using external script so to
  get chunks finely grained such as paragraphs, headings of course are
  included making HTML better outlined and structured for further
  import into both Org files and yet private Hyperscope database.

You think that could work?

Any examples how you use qutebrowser with external scripts?

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

> Thank you Ihor. I know this all could be in the manual, and I read
> manuals all the time but never read it fully. Without these references
> I would not easily discover those useful functions.

Yeah. It is even worth re-reading manuals from time to time as you use
the corresponding tool. With growing experience, many initially
unnoticed features can be discovered and used efficiently.

>> I just listed the possibilities. I personally use qutebrowser where I
>> can directly call external scripts.
>
> While I did use qutebrowser many times, did not know about the
> scripts. Please state some examples how you call those external
> scripts. I am interested if:

- https://www.qutebrowser.org/doc/userscripts.html
- https://github.com/qutebrowser/experiments/blob/83c2e32bca05023026578ac9b64f7a5938772e9d/misc/userscripts/README.md

> - qutebrowser, once HTML is loaded or any file, can transmit this file
>   in a script to external program to parse it, collect meta data and
>   index it somewhere

.html version of the current page is always available to userscripts via
$QUTE_HTML variable.

I use it in my capture package:
https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref#qute_integration

> - in particular I would be interested if qutebrowser could be used to
>   convert the HTML on the fly to OPML by using external script so to
>   get chunks finely grained such as paragraphs, headings of course are
>   included making HTML better outlined and structured for further
>   import into both Org files and yet private Hyperscope database.

Since you have access to the html file, you can pass it to any app in
your system. For example, you might convert the page to any other format
with pandoc or parse it with beautifulsoap in python. However, the file
will not contain the multimedia content - only bare html.

Best,
Ihor

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-25 06:43]:
>> > Now I hope that I can use org-capture to invoke other functions from
>> > external programs.
>> 
>> In general, you can define your own protocols. See
>> org-protocol-protocol-alist docstring for details how to define custom
>> protocols executing arbitrary elisp code.
>
> Thank you Ihor. I know this all could be in the manual, and I read
> manuals all the time but never read it fully. Without these references
> I would not easily discover those useful functions.
>
> When there is reference such as URL, I am actually following it and
> researching the subject. Few minutes research here and then are
> sparing me time on repetitive tasks in futures. 
>
>> > I would like to use org-capture to get data while invoking some
>> > Elisp, that I can capture into database. Do you think that is
>> > possible straight somehow?
>> >
>> > That capture does not go into Org but that I can redirect it to other
>> > elisp function?
>> 
>> You can add your own function to org-capture-prepare-finalize-hook and
>> do whatever you want with the captured text, like passing it to external
>> program. Once done, you can just call (org-capture-kill) to abort the
>> capture and not save the data to org.
>> 
>> > Chrome is no go here as I do not like getting tracked by Google. But
>> > it is similar extension
>> 
>> I just listed the possibilities. I personally use qutebrowser where I
>> can directly call external scripts.
>
> While I did use qutebrowser many times, did not know about the
> scripts. Please state some examples how you call those external
> scripts. I am interested if:
>
> - qutebrowser, once HTML is loaded or any file, can transmit this file
>   in a script to external program to parse it, collect meta data and
>   index it somewhere
>
> - in particular I would be interested if qutebrowser could be used to
>   convert the HTML on the fly to OPML by using external script so to
>   get chunks finely grained such as paragraphs, headings of course are
>   included making HTML better outlined and structured for further
>   import into both Org files and yet private Hyperscope database.
>
> You think that could work?
>
> Any examples how you use qutebrowser with external scripts?

Browser org-capture bookmarklet

[Jean Louis]

I have started using Org-capture but now without changing Emacs
session it stopped working with error:

Greedy org-protocol handler.  Killing client.
No server buffers remain to edit

Do you know any how why this happens?

Re: Browser org-capture bookmarklet

[Ihor Radchenko]

Probably, you did not define the capture template your browser
extension/bookmarklet expects (it's usually a single letter). You may
look at https://github.com/sprig/org-capture-extension/issues/1 for
hints how to solve the problem.

Best,
Ihor

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> I have started using Org-capture but now without changing Emacs
> session it stopped working with error:
>
> Greedy org-protocol handler.  Killing client.
> No server buffers remain to edit
>
> Do you know any how why this happens?

Re: Browser org-capture bookmarklet

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-25 15:53]:
> Probably, you did not define the capture template your browser
> extension/bookmarklet expects (it's usually a single letter). You may
> look at https://github.com/sprig/org-capture-extension/issues/1 for
> hints how to solve the problem.

I got it working well, everything worked and I did not change
anything. Templates are defined and yesterday I started collecting.

Re: Browser org-capture bookmarklet

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-25 15:53]:
> Probably, you did not define the capture template your browser
> extension/bookmarklet expects (it's usually a single letter). You may
> look at https://github.com/sprig/org-capture-extension/issues/1 for
> hints how to solve the problem.

Now I have transitioned all the captured Org notes to Hyperscope and
minimized the org-capture-templates to this below, and now it works
again just fine!

(("p" "Protocol" entry
  (file+headline "~/Documents/Orgnotes.org" "Inbox")
  "* %^{Title}
Source: %u, %c
 #+BEGIN_QUOTE
%i
#+END_QUOTE


%?")
 ("L" "Protocol Link" entry
  (file+headline "~/Documents/Orgnotes.org" "Inbox")
  "* %:description
%:link"))

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-24 10:25]:
  :PROPERTIES:
  :CREATED:  [2020-11-27 Fri 05:40]
  :ID:       7caa9f79-d5c2-4e00-8b34-60055025240e
  :END:
> > Side note: there shall be feature in Org that quickly
> > captures the full link to the heading. Maybe it already
> > exists. Instead of constructing links by hand like entering
> > the file name, entering the heading for the link, there
> > shall by some automated feature:
> 
> See org-store-link and org-insert-link. org-store-link stores link in a
> link ring and the link/links can be later inserted using
> org-insert-link.

That is great feature. I have got many good tips from you and I slowly
process them and implement such.

I knew about org-store-link and not that I used it much within
Emacs. Such feature is necessary in any system managing
hyperlinks. Programmers are exposed to let us say WWW but may not know
where the roots come from and that hyperlinking was envisioned back in
time even before modern computers.

Memex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex

Now we have `evince' PDF viewer that can open PDF I think by page
number and by query but it cannot do the equivalent
`evince-store-link' so user has to think about the file name and page
number and so on.

We have browsers that each of them think for themselves. Each can
store bookmarks but hardly provide such to external programs.

Almost none browser can store specific paragraph based bookmark. They
rely mostly on anchors as finely specified greed. Bookmarks could be
by HTML page number or query or paragraph.

Even modern browsers have very poor functions of managing
bookmarks.

File managers do not provide `file-manager-store-link' but they should
as it would be very useful to have programs integrate with each other
that hyperdocument systems can be built.

> > Org headings can be or could be marked with later action on
> > the whole collection of headings:
> 
> See bulk commands in agenda (Bulk remote editing selected entries):
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Agenda-Commands.html
> 
> Manually picking headlines to put into agenda is not currently possible
> in org-mode, but one can volunteer to do it. It is not too hard to
> implement. Patches are welcome.

Myself I would not know why to manually pick and put into agenda.

> > - re-filing all of them at once
> 
> built-in

Do you mean it is possible to mark 5-6 headlines and then re-file them
quickly to other file?

That would spare me some organizing efforts.

> > - sending them all by email to other person (I do with Org)
> 
> > - sending hyperlinks in other Org file (I do in HyperScope)
> 
> > - creating new Org file with the collection of headings
> 
> not implemented, but see org-agenda-bulk-custom-functions for extending
> the built-in functionality

Thank you for reference.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Alan Schmitt]

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Hello,

On 2020-11-27 05:40, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Now we have `evince' PDF viewer that can open PDF I think by page
> number and by query but it cannot do the equivalent
> `evince-store-link' so user has to think about the file name and page
> number and so on.

For that I recommend pdf-tools (great pdf viewer for emacs, supporting
annotations and synctex, https://github.com/politza/pdf-tools) and
org-pdftools (provides org links for it,
https://github.com/fuxialexander/org-pdftools). There is also the
org-noter option (https://github.com/weirdNox/org-noter) to link
external annotations to pdfs.

> We have browsers that each of them think for themselves. Each can
> store bookmarks but hardly provide such to external programs.

For that org-protocol was mentioned. There is eww as well to browse
within emacs (and thus have links).

> File managers do not provide `file-manager-store-link' but they should
> as it would be very useful to have programs integrate with each other
> that hyperdocument systems can be built.

dired is a nice file manager. I agree having something at the level of
the OS would be great, but emacs is a pretty good OS ;)

Best,

Alan

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Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

Hello Allan,

Thank you for references, I am collecting it.

* Alan Schmitt <alan.schmitt@polytechnique.org> [2020-11-27 11:15]:
> For that I recommend pdf-tools (great pdf viewer for emacs, supporting
> annotations and synctex, https://github.com/politza/pdf-tools ) and
> org-pdftools (provides org links for it,

That is nice and I have take note for later inspection. The current
doc-view functions are already pretty nice and allow to access PDF
files by its page number and I also think searching words would
work. Maybe I already made it and forgot it.

For the built-in doc-view by using function (doc-view-current-page)
one can obtain the page number and that allows for creation of a
function to create quickly Org link to specific PDF number to be
viewed with the built-in doc-view:

(defun org-capture-doc-view-page-by-number ()
  (interactive)
  (let* ((page (doc-view-current-page))
	 (file (buffer-file-name))
	 (name (read-from-minibuffer "Hyperlink name: "))
	 (hyperlink (format "[[elisp:(doc-view-open-file \"%s\" %s)][%s]]" file page name)))
    (kill-new hyperlink)))

Function allows to search by page number, query and match:
`(doc-view-open-file FILE &optional PAGE-NUMBER QUERY MATCH)'

When making such hyperlinks for Org, I rather like using generic
functions to open such files, such as:

Instead of:

[[elisp:(doc-view-open-file
"/home/data1/protected/Downloads/Download.PDF" 1)][Transaction
History]]

[[elisp:(generic-pdf-open-file "/home/data1/protected/Downloads/Download.PDF" 1)][Transaction History]]

Then the generic function could be replaced by user's
customization. If somebody would like to open PDF file by pdf-tools,
evince, or doc-view, then welcome, customize and go!

More than that I like using even more generic links that do not hard
code the file path as such are indexed in the database, then it would
look like this:

Instead of:

[[elisp:(generic-pdf-open-file "/home/data1/protected/Downloads/Download.PDF" 1)][Transaction History]]

[[elisp:(hyperscope 123)][Transaction History]]

As that brings the possibility that I change the file path or rename
the file but the unique ID 123 never changes, and again may decide how
to open file, by which viewer. In addition it could decide:

- to open file and show annotations

- while opening file to play some music to read with music together

- or I could add any other function to the very generic high level
  hyperlink

I would prefer if authors of pdf-tools would contribute their generic
functions if useful to doc-view. It is nice to have such external
tools, even nicer is when core Emacs get enhanced.

> https://github.com/fuxialexander/org-pdftools). There is also the
> org-noter option (https://github.com/weirdNox/org-noter) to link
> external annotations to pdfs.

Annotations are long time envisioned feature that is very poorly
implemented in any hyperdocument systems. Hypothes.is implement it for
WWW but WWW could be better designed to allow easier
annotations. Browsers are missing it all over.

Hypothes.is Annotate the web, with anyone, anywhere.
https://web.hypothes.is/

org-noter is great package and peculiar to me I would keep notes
related to anything and make it built-in feature in Emacs. Files can
be annotated, images can be annotated, videos, email messages.

It referenced to interleave, I have not used it but I see it would
show PDF on one side and Org file on the other side, Then user can
quickly annotate a page and press key and note is stored in Org, that
is such good example of what I call integration or combining into one
whole. Such functions could become part of Org mode as they are
useful.

Personally I am using similar divided window functionality where I can
quickly insert hyperlinks from other buffer and capture hyperlinks
from other buffers straight into the database.

How I see that org-noter does it from the video is that when user
opens heading the page will automatically appear on the other
window. That is useful feature.

I just see it is so much hard coding and it reinforced demand for
structured meta data. Packages interleave and org-note are good
examples where authors try to hard code relations.

> > We have browsers that each of them think for themselves. Each can
> > store bookmarks but hardly provide such to external programs.
> 
> For that org-protocol was mentioned. There is eww as well to browse
> within emacs (and thus have links).

Browsers vary in their implementations, if they allow Javascript this
may be possible. Without Javascript it requires different
hacks. Generally there is no adopted standard on annotations. Mosaic
browser had general public annotations as a built-in feature. Netscape
did not follow with it and Firefox today still does not have proper
annotations. It has bookmark annotation. But it does not have
something like page ID, match, query or paragraph annotation, or
heading annotation. Then every browser does what they want. We would
have more useful computing would developers agree on common useful
features. 

> > File managers do not provide `file-manager-store-link' but they should
> > as it would be very useful to have programs integrate with each other
> > that hyperdocument systems can be built.
> 
> dired is a nice file manager. I agree having something at the level of
> the OS would be great, but emacs is a pretty good OS ;)

Yes. I use Dired all the time. But I use files in groups and group
members cannot all easily do what is required. Files are managed by
different file managers.

If there would be central database on computer that is integrated or
supported by various file managers. As long as file manager support
options such as "Open with" or "Send to" and those are customizable
then integration becomes possible. 

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-11-27 Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> Now we have `evince' PDF viewer that can open PDF I think by page
> number and by query but it cannot do the equivalent
> `evince-store-link' so user has to think about the file name and page
> number and so on.

However xpdf (evince predecessor in respect to PDF engine) allows to 
define custom bindings in config file, so store link could be 
implemented. It seems, the feature was lost on the way to user-friendly 
interface. Unsure but maybe store link could be configured for browser 
built-in PDF viewers.

> We have browsers that each of them think for themselves. Each can
> store bookmarks but hardly provide such to external programs.

I agree that bookmarks as they implemented in browser is something poor. 
Forget external programs in the context of modern browsers (either you 
like it or not). De facto, extensions should communicate with HTTP 
servers, to protect users, access to filesystem is not allowed any more. 
However some API to manipulate bookmarks exists, do not know if it is 
really useful: 
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add-ons/WebExtensions/API/bookmarks

> Almost none browser can store specific paragraph based bookmark. They
> rely mostly on anchors as finely specified greed. Bookmarks could be
> by HTML page number or query or paragraph.

In principle, any paragraph could be addressed using XPath 
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/XPath/Introduction_to_using_XPath_in_JavaScript 
but it is extremely fragile since link will be likely invalid after web 
site redesign or modification of the text. There is no interface for end 
users but web developers use it for UI tests if there is no more 
reliable option.

There was text search addressing initiative "Scroll to text"
https://github.com/WICG/scroll-to-text-fragment/
The problem that URLs have no room for such extension points and some 
web sites abuse #anchors to determine what content should be shown, so 
addressing of particular element is not possible at all.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-11-27 Jean Louis wrote:
> * Alan Schmitt [2020-11-27 11:15]:
> 
>> https://github.com/fuxialexander/org-pdftools). There is also the
>> org-noter option (https://github.com/weirdNox/org-noter) to link
>> external annotations to pdfs.
> 
> Annotations are long time envisioned feature that is very poorly
> implemented in any hyperdocument systems. Hypothes.is implement it for
> WWW but WWW could be better designed to allow easier
> annotations. Browsers are missing it all over.

A remark just to ensure that there is no confusion. PDF format has its 
own annotations that are saved inside the file (highlights, text notes, 
drawings). It is quite convenient to comment e.g. draft version of a 
paper. Another use case is working with a document on a tablet.

External annotations are certainly powerful but sometimes they are not 
an equivalent.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2020-11-28 18:52]:
  :PROPERTIES:
  :CREATED:  [2020-11-28 Sat 19:55]
  :ID:       60f81bc3-5122-44d6-87b6-d8554fc6a6b4
  :END:
> 2020-11-27 Jean Louis wrote:
> > 
> > Now we have `evince' PDF viewer that can open PDF I think by page
> > number and by query but it cannot do the equivalent
> > `evince-store-link' so user has to think about the file name and page
> > number and so on.
> 
> However xpdf (evince predecessor in respect to PDF engine) allows to
> define custom bindings in config file, so store link could be
> implemented. It seems, the feature was lost on the way to
> user-friendly interface. Unsure but maybe store link could be
> configured for browser built-in PDF viewers.

Myself I was not aware of history of hyperlinks but when we look back
to Memex and Engelbart, it becomes clear that we wasted more than half
century without implementing what is useful.

Any viewer should have option to quickly construct a hyperlink and
store it somewhere with its annotation and other meta data so that
such can be reused by any other program. And viewer should have option
to directly access such reference from command line or by invoking it
from other program. Both the viewer author or party producing that
software and other software that hyperlinks by using some program are
benefiting from it.

Maybe evince and various PDF viewers and their maintainers can be
convinced to include those very simple functions. PDF often have meta
data usable for referencing, and if such does not exist then specific
page ID, query or match can be used. I will ask Evince maintainers and
other PDF viewer authors then mpv, mplayer and VLC as well.

As if I can open video at specific time to be played then why I cannot
obtain the hyperlink by watching video. Sounds not logical to me.

Hyperlinks captured should not be related to Org. They should have
their own URIs and Org should know how to interpret its URIs.

List of URI Schemes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_URI_schemes

I know that Org is using something as file:something::12 but not sure
if it really supports for example PDF for page number, query or
match. It should.

It should support video by its specific start time to be played or
sound to be played all or by specific start time or time period.

In general many of those URI schemes should be built-in into Org. Most
of them are already built-in into Emacs but their handlers are
not. The development version of Emacs has now browse-url-handlers and
that allows for any URI to be opened within Emacs. Org mode is not
necessary, only goto-browse-mode.

> > We have browsers that each of them think for themselves. Each can
> > store bookmarks but hardly provide such to external programs.
> 
> I agree that bookmarks as they implemented in browser is something poor.
> Forget external programs in the context of modern browsers (either you like
> it or not). De facto, extensions should communicate with HTTP servers, to
> protect users, access to filesystem is not allowed any more.

Alright, only if it would be that secure, then this type of advise
would not be there:

How to Run a More Secure Browser
https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/RunSecureBrowser/

I do remember before 15 years how I could offer a website to be
accessed by user and I could choose either to fully block and freeze
user's computer or to access file system of the user. Those are
exploits, and if those exploits still exist or not we cannot know
until we know.  What is known by experience is that browsers are not
quite secure.

Example like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JailbreakMe may be
today in other forms activated on people's computers.

> However some API to manipulate bookmarks exists, do not know if it
> is really useful:
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add-ons/WebExtensions/API/bookmarks

I have ceased using bookmarks in browsers. Org capture mechanism
allows bookmarking in a central system that may be managed by Emacs,
but as it is database it may be managed by simple command line tool
fzf and SQL or by awk and sed to choose a node or again Emacs on
command line, or Perl accessing the remote database or any other
language.

When things are stored in the database access can be anyhow. I am also
thinking to devise way to store activation methods in the database
itself and not in the program accessing database.

> > Almost none browser can store specific paragraph based
> bookmark. They > rely mostly on anchors as finely specified
> greed. Bookmarks could be > by HTML page number or query or
> paragraph.  In principle, any paragraph could be addressed using
> XPath
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/XPath/Introduction_to_using_XPath_in_JavaScript
> but it is extremely fragile since link will be likely invalid after
> web site redesign or modification of the text.

I am keeping references, thank you. It looks like low level API. It
does not matter for modifications as some documents are pretty static
and their revisions could have different URLs. Example is
documentation, books, instructions. In my personal case it can be
mineral processing information.

From the above link on XPath I have not figured out yet how to
generate a hyperlink to specific paragraph. I may spend days until I
figure it out.

> There is no interface for end users but web developers use it for UI
> tests if there is no more reliable option.  There was text search
> addressing initiative "Scroll to text"
> https://github.com/WICG/scroll-to-text-fragment/ The problem that
> URLs have no room for such extension points and some web sites abuse
> #anchors to determine what content should be shown, so addressing of
> particular element is not possible at all.

This system solves the problem and there is the underlying Javascript
library.

Hypothes.is Annotate the web, with anyone, anywhere.
https://web.hypothes.is/

I wish to solve the problem in providing annotiation in little bit
different way:

- hyperlink is activated from Org file or any other file or system

- on my side the hyperdocument is created and its hyperlink points to
  the unique ID while unique ID points to hyperdocument in question
  and also decides how such should be displayed, activated, etc.

  At this point I would like to have something like XPath, but that
  also means I have to invoke Javascript which then renders many
  browsers not usable. In general system like I envision should work
  equally well on the any browser, like Emacs eww or Lynx or just any
  browser.

  I am also not implementing complex things, no complex templates or
  similar.

- if something has to be annotated then hyperscope dynamic knowledge
  repository would invoke fetching, annotating, marking, generating
  and uploading the HTML page that would then show:

  - the title
    
  - annotations
    
  - text being annotated as published from database
    
  - original text below annotations as published originally but with
    stripped HTML, Javascript and other cruft.

  - hyperlink to original text

  - maybe, if browser allows it, frame of the original WWW page

  - web based password protection if necessary

Annotations and such hyperdocument with annotations of a specific
paragraph on other page, could be as well invoked from Org file
directly.

** Heading could have property below:
   ANNOTATION: [[annotate:URL:query-begin:query-end:][title of annotation]]

Annotation here could be long or paragraph or multiple paragraphs.

Now when user clicks on `annotate' hyperlink, Emacs Lisp program could
then:

- verify on local file system if the HTML file is supposed to exist

- obtain heading title

- obtain title of annotation

- fetch the URL

- strip it from HTML and Javascript, etc

- find query-begin and query-end and markup the paragraph with some
  background color

- insert the heading of HTML file, annotations, the full original
  text, upload the file and generate the URL

  Alternative is not to do anything with original hyperlink but just
  to annotate such on a separate WWW page.

- URL would be static and never changing according to:
  https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI

- URL would point to unique ID like example.com/1/2/3/324

- then send the URL to the person to which one is referencing. As
  annotations in local file for oneself is already there. If this all
  sounds complicated in reality is just some seconds of computer
  generating such HTML.

Any similar system is definitely necessary if one wish to share notes
or text with people online on the fly. It could be used for static
full website generation, but it is rather meant for sharing single
documents or annotations.

In general Org needs: "Share a note system"

The function below I am using for some years already to send an Org
heading to other person. It uses other functions such as automatic
choice of a person and gives audible announcement to people around the
staff member. Audible announcement of some computing functions helps
in coordination with present people, it is automated sharing by using
audio.

(defun rcd/org-send-assigned-task ()
  "Sends assigned task to designated individual as Org"
  (interactive)
  (let* ((member-data (rcd-org-extract-assigned-member-email-data))
	 (id (if member-data (first member-data) nil))
	 (signature (if (equal (type-of (symbol-value (fifth member-data))) 'cons)
	 		(third (symbol-value (fifth member-data))) ""))
	 (file (rcd-org-subtree-to-file signature))
	 (subject (rcd/org-find-headline))
	 (esubject (escape-% subject))
	 (ask (unless id (y-or-n-p "No assignment found. Do you want to send it by email?")))
	 (name (if id (third member-data)))
	 ;; (name (if ask (read-from-minibuffer "Name:") name))
	 (voice (format "The task '%s' is being sent to '%s'" subject name))
	 (email (if id (if (equal (type-of (fourth member-data)) 'cons)
			   (car (fourth member-data))
			 (fourth member-data))))
	 (email (if ask (cf-search-email (read-from-minibuffer "Search for email: ")) email))
	 (really (y-or-n-p (format "Do you really want to send it to: %s?" (if ask email name)))))
    (if (and really (or id ask))
      (if (string-match "@" email)
	(progn
	  ;; (message (escape-% subject))
	  (speak voice)
	  (mutt-send-file name email esubject file))
	(message "No email specified"))
      (message "Aborted sending."))))

the above function that automatically searches for valid email
addresses among several, for person to which task is assigned, and
that chooses right signature amont several for different
organizations, may be simplified to this:

(defun my-org-send-heading ()
  "Sends heading by email"
  (interactive)
  (let* ((heading (org-with-wide-buffer
		   (org-back-to-heading t)
		   (let ((case-fold-search nil))
		     (when (looking-at org-complex-heading-regexp)
		       (match-string-no-properties 4)))))
	 (subtree (org-copy-subtree)))
    (compose-mail-other-window nil heading)
    (rfc822-goto-eoh)
    (forward-line 1)
    (insert (pop kill-ring))
    (mail-position-on-field "to")))

then by invoking M-x my-org-send-heading user can quickly open up the
Emacs built-in sendmail interface with prepared message. Then email
address may be selected and email sent.

This type of integrations with people I miss in Org. My surprise was
big when I realized that Org is there with features to manage tasks
but does not offer feature to "send the task". User is supposed to
compose the email, kill and yank, copy and paste. All those small
things mean that more time and effort is spent.

Tasks or notes should be quickly shareable or be capable of being sent
to different objects and places:

- to speak loud by computer the heading and text under
  heading. Instead of people reading, people may also listen if they
  are close to loudspeakers. I am using `festival' as it has built-in
  Emacs package that allows pretty nice speech. {M-x org-heading-speak-it}

- to be shared by email easily and that with the favorite email
  client. Not just Emacs. 

- to be sent by SMS by using kdeconnect, gnokii or twilio or other
  systems by using something like {M-x org-heading-to-sms} where
  subsequently proper contact would be chosen.

- to be sent by XMPP messenger or other types of messengers. User
  should be able to simply do {M-x org-heading-to-xmpp} where
  subsequent group or target conversant would be chosen.

- to be posted on Fediverss social networking or other social networks
  without user pressing many keys. If the Fediverse or social account
  has been defined already, then one command like
  {M-x org-heading-pleroma} or {M-x org-heading-mastodon} should be
  enough for heading to be posted and formatted appropriately.

- to be prepared quickly as PDF and sent to the printer. If task is
  assigned to person, why then operator of Org file need to: open Org
  export, decide to narrow export to the selected heading, choose the
  PDF, open PDF, print PDF. Those are many repetitive actions. Instead
  user should be able to invoke a command: M-x org-print-heading and
  finished. The printer prints it. Or fax faxes it.

Jean

  

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2020-11-28 19:13]:
> 2020-11-27 Jean Louis wrote:
> > * Alan Schmitt [2020-11-27 11:15]:
> > 
> > > https://github.com/fuxialexander/org-pdftools). There is also the
> > > org-noter option (https://github.com/weirdNox/org-noter) to link
> > > external annotations to pdfs.
> > 
> > Annotations are long time envisioned feature that is very poorly
> > implemented in any hyperdocument systems. Hypothes.is implement it for
> > WWW but WWW could be better designed to allow easier
> > annotations. Browsers are missing it all over.
> 
> A remark just to ensure that there is no confusion. PDF format has its own
> annotations that are saved inside the file (highlights, text notes,
> drawings). It is quite convenient to comment e.g. draft version of a paper.
> Another use case is working with a document on a tablet.
> 
> External annotations are certainly powerful but sometimes they are not an
> equivalent.

Your remark is quite good.

Then once annotated document has been prepared as PDF such can be
referenced by constructed hyperlink from other hypertext systems.

One problem with such PDF is that annotations may be confidential or
not public and that remains to people to solve their access
permissions. Other case is providing simple annotations for online
PDFs that are not on one's own server.

On my side solving that by referencing to people over WWW involves
creating separate WWW page with annotation over the online accessible
PDF page. It may be harder to read but still solves problem to
certain degree.

Let us say I wish to reference Memex, instead of:

Memex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex

then there would be reference like this rather:

Memex
https://www.example.com/1/2/3/643

and on such intermediary website, one could get hyperlinks and
annotations to the original website. Such annotations, comments,
notes, and other relations to the final hyperdocument could be updated
in the mean time while the original URL as reference
https://www.example.com/1/2/3/643 remains static.

Upon opening of the intermediary URL https://www.example.com/1/2/3/643
the destination URL could be opened as well in a new window by using
Javascript. Though I do not prefer that approach.

The annotating page could look something like below, with maybe more
various references to the subject being referenced and various
hyperlinks automatically displayed. There are Emacs packages that
allow Emacs buffers to be htmlized.

Memex
=====
     Tags: memex 
     Type: WWW
Hyperlink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex

Memex is  the name of  the hypothetical electromechanical  device that
Vannevar Bush  described in his 1945  article "As We May  Think". Bush
envisioned the memex  as a device in which  individuals would compress
and store all of their books, records, and communications, "mechanized
so that it may be consulted with exceeding speed and flexibility". The
memex would provide an "enlarged intimate supplement to one's memory".

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> How to Run a More Secure Browser
> https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/RunSecureBrowser/

There is also Firejail these days:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Sakaki/Sakaki%27s_EFI_Install_Guide/Sandboxing_the_Firefox_Browser_with_Firejail#Sandboxing_with_Firejail

> Tasks or notes should be quickly shareable or be capable of being sent
> to different objects and places:

I can see that you have implemented many of the suggested commands
yourself. Why don't you just propose patches extending the functionality
you desire?

Best,
Ihor

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-30 12:31]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > How to Run a More Secure Browser
> > https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/RunSecureBrowser/
> 
> There is also Firejail these days:
> 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Sakaki/Sakaki%27s_EFI_Install_Guide/Sandboxing_the_Firefox_Browser_with_Firejail#Sandboxing_with_Firejail
> 
> > Tasks or notes should be quickly shareable or be capable of being sent
> > to different objects and places:
> 
> I can see that you have implemented many of the suggested commands
> yourself. Why don't you just propose patches extending the functionality
> you desire?

Good question, I have no idea in this moment why not. Maybe I just
make a function that works for me and is not that easy to provide a
patch that enhances some Org functionality. Example is sending Org
tasks by email, if somebody of developers wish to do that they can
do. For me is concept more important than specific function. Concept
of being able to send any object from anywhere to anybody is more
important than functions. Then if developers have different concepts
and do not think of sending or sharing objects, then those are
colliding minds and different experiences. I need to put more effort
to write it why, how, where, what, then to write the function itself
that just works. That is reason why people make separate packages.

For me is suprising that Emacs that has email sending capabilities
does not have integrated usage of that capability with other
modes. It may be surprising to me but other people or majority may not
have use of those features so it is not there.

- mark region, click to send by email, why is that not built-in I am
  surprised. GNU Hyperbole has function:

  hmail:region is an interactive compiled Lisp function in ‘hmail.el’.

  (hmail:region START END &optional BUF INVISIBLE-FLAG)

- send buffer as email? Why is that not built-in is surprising to
  me. GNU Hyperbole has it:

  hmail:buffer is an interactive compiled Lisp function in ‘hmail.el’.

  (hmail:buffer &optional BUF INVISIBLE-FLAG)

  Start composing mail with the contents of optional BUF as the
  message body.  Invisible text is expanded and included in the mail
  only if INVISIBLE-FLAG is non-nil.  BUF defaults to the current
  buffer and may be a buffer or buffer name.

- Org heading to email? Why is it not built-in? It is very
  surprising. I think I have provided a function that offers concept,
  so it is up to them to implement it. 

Jean

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-30 13:15]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > Do you mean it is possible to mark 5-6 headlines and then re-file them
> > quickly to other file?
> >
> > That would spare me some organizing efforts.
> 
> Yes. I think the default building is "m" for marking and "B" for bulk
> actions. The possible actions appear at the bottom of the screen.

I got it from a GIF animation.  That is a built-in and great feature.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-29-11 Jean Louis wrote:
> * Maxim Nikulin [2020-11-28 18:52]:
> 
> Any viewer should have option to quickly construct a hyperlink and
> store it somewhere with its annotation and other meta data so that
> such can be reused by any other program.

Xpdf do not have option to construct hyperlink, it allows to execute 
arbitrary command (if context matches) and pass some parameters using 
substitutions. It is enough e.g. to copy target of the link, to do 
something with page number (construct hyperlink to this page). Maybe 
selection region could be passed to pdftotext to extract selection text 
that could be inserted to a note.

Surprisingly PDF viewers built in into browser have fences preventing 
access of browser extensions to the text content. I did not expect such 
limitations. There are extensions that offer translation of text 
selected in PDF files however. It seems they use bundled pdf.js to 
replace built-in viewer. Unsure that JS working with PDF file runs in 
proper security context. I expected a robust way for integration with 
note taking applications.

>> De facto, extensions should communicate with HTTP servers, to
>> protect users, access to filesystem is not allowed any more.
> 
> Alright, only if it would be that secure, then this type of advise
> would not be there:
> 
> How to Run a More Secure Browser
> https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/RunSecureBrowser/

Just one problem, if one uses a browser extension that works with local 
files then he have content accessible by extensions. Another extension 
could do something bad with such files. Mozilla XUL extensions were very 
powerful and had access to file system. It is impossible to ensure that 
there is no malicious extensions in the add-on catalog. XUL was dropped, 
chrome extension API has been adopted. File system is protected against 
bad extensions, extensions have to keep user data on some server. Only 
local files are protected, security model for requests to remote servers 
is quite poor. It is funny, that attempts to allow web applications to 
work with local files are not stopped, unsure if I have heard about this 
particular proposal earlier or it is another one: 
https://web.dev/file-system-access/

In the previous message I was writing about very specific problem: 
extension author could put code that steal files or ruin them. To solve 
it, extension developers were force to store user content on a remote 
server instead of local files. I do not think it is significantly safer.

And finally, running browser under a different user is likely not 
enough. Browser for working with "external" resources should be isolated 
from home or office network (network namespace, container, virtual 
machine). There are enough web sites that checks which ports are open at 
least on the localhost. Local network could be scanned through browser 
as well.

>> In principle, any paragraph could be addressed using
>> XPath
>> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/XPath/Introduction_to_using_XPath_in_JavaScript
>> but it is extremely fragile since link will be likely invalid after
>> web site redesign or modification of the text.
> 
> ...
>  From the above link on XPath I have not figured out yet how to
> generate a hyperlink to specific paragraph. I may spend days until I
> figure it out.

Page inspector in developer tools has a context menu entry to copy XPath 
to particular element. Likely you will prefer to generate link in a more 
smart and stable way, e,g, by looking for an element with id attribute 
nearby and construct a link relative to it. Maybe it is possible to 
implement protocol handler for custom scheme with XPath references
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/registerProtocolHandler

> My surprise was
> big when I realized that Org is there with features to manage tasks
> but does not offer feature to "send the task".

In my opinion, you have demonstrated that emacs and org mode are 
powerful enough to allow users to implement rather specific workflow 
with a quite small piece of code. It may be a dedicated package but I do 
not think it worth including such features to the base set. Docs will be 
longer than the code. Personally, I would expect export-based solution 
that strips comments, takes email addresses from some properties and 
saves messages to the draft folder for review before sending them.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2020-11-30 20:10]:
> 2020-29-11 Jean Louis wrote:
> > * Maxim Nikulin [2020-11-28 18:52]:
> >
> > Any viewer should have option to quickly construct a hyperlink and
> > store it somewhere with its annotation and other meta data so that
> > such can be reused by any other program.
>
> Xpdf do not have option to construct hyperlink, it allows to execute
> arbitrary command (if context matches) and pass some parameters
> using substitutions. It is enough e.g. to copy target of the link,
> to do something with page number (construct hyperlink to this
> page). Maybe selection region could be passed to pdftotext to
> extract selection text that could be inserted to a note.

That is great reference, thank you! That allows now for PDFs to get
quickly captured.

Authors have made this command possible:

	setSelection(pg,ulx,uly,lrx,lry)
		Set the  selection to the specified  coordinates on the
		specified page.

And external command can capture selection made with mouse. That means
one can mark the text, and annotate such in a hyperdocument and then
provide hyperlink. Once PDF is opened the selection can be
automatically highlighted.

Capturing page number becomes trivial. This is great for my research,
development of Hyperscope and generation of elementary objects such
as:

- specific pages of PDF
- specific selections of the PDF

To note is that not every PDF has text inside. They may be made from
images.

External command needs a script that will ask user how to store it. It
can be done similar to bookmarklets for org-capture.

	run(external-command-string)
		Run  an external  command.  The  following escapes  are
		allowed in the command string:

		    %f => PDF file name (or an empty string if no
				file is open)
		    %b => PDF file base name, i.e., file name minus
				the extension (or an empty string if no
				file is open)
		    %u => link URL (or an empty string if not over
				a URL link)
		    %p => current page number (or an empty string if
				no file is open)
		    %x => selection upper-left x coordinate
				(or 0 if there is no selection)
		    %y => selection upper-left y coordinate
				(or 0 if there is no selection)
		    %X => selection lower-right x coordinate
				(or 0 if there is no selection)
		    %Y => selection lower-right y coordinate
				(or 0 if there is no selection)
		    %i => page containing the mouse pointer
		    %j => x coordinate of the mouse pointer
		    %k => y coordinate of the mouse pointer
		    %% => %

		The external command string  will often contain spaces,
		so the whole command must be quoted in the xpdfrc file:

		    bind x "run(ls -l)"

That means if user prepares the ~/.xpdfrc to contain the following
line:

,----
| bind ctrl-l any "run(capturexpdf.sh %f %p)"
`----

and prepares `capturexpdf.sh' to be executable and contains following:

,----
| #!/bin/bash
| capture="/home/data1/protected/xpdfcaptured.org"
| entry=`zenity --entry`
| hyperlink="[[$1:$2][$entry]]"
| echo $hyperlink >> $capture
`----

then by pressing C-l in xpdf the hyperlink containing exact file name,
page number and hyperlink name created by using `zenity' tool will be
saved into "/home/data1/protected/xpdfcaptured.org":

Then later regardless which PDF viewer is used, as long as they
support page number access it will be possible to invoke that
different PDF viewer on elementary objects or hyperdocuments to
specific PDF file and page number.

It is great tool for researchers to quickly annotate specific PDF
pages for later references.

> Surprisingly PDF viewers built in into browser have fences
> preventing access of browser extensions to the text content. I did
> not expect such limitations.

It does not sound as progress. Evince maybe originates from xpdf but
does not have nearly these options as xpdf. We go back and become more
beautiful with software but less useful.

One big thank you for giving these references. I will extract text
from PDF files and then index such files and use relevance search to
find references to specific subjects like mining, minerals, etc. and
then those relevant pages may be opened based on the query to
construct more precise hyperlink. The activity can be performed by
several people. It also becomes possible to quickly capture PDF
hyperlink references straight into the database.

> There are extensions that offer translation of text selected in PDF
> files however. It seems they use bundled pdf.js to replace built-in
> viewer. Unsure that JS working with PDF file runs in proper security
> context. I expected a robust way for integration with note taking
> applications.

Sadly.

> > > De facto, extensions should communicate with HTTP servers, to
> > > protect users, access to filesystem is not allowed any more.
> >
> > Alright, only if it would be that secure, then this type of advise
> > would not be there:
> >
> > How to Run a More Secure Browser
> > https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/RunSecureBrowser/
>
> Just one problem, if one uses a browser extension that works with local
> files then he have content accessible by extensions.

When using a different user on a file system for secure browsing then
one should not have any files in such user's space. The point of using
different user name when browsing is that no files would exist there
that could be compromised. Malicious application would have hard time
accessing the main user space as it would need to have either sudo
privileges without password or attempt to crack password.

 +-----------+		+------------+	     +-----------+
 |  MAIN     |		| BROWSING   |	     | MALICIOUS |
 |  USER     |----->	|   USER     |  <--- |   CODE    |
 |           |		| NO FILES   |       |           |
 +-----------+		+------------+       +-----------+

On GNU/Linux and BSD derivatives user space is protected from other
users. It is advisable that each user has their /home/user directory
readable, searchable and writeable only by user. Permissions should
look like this:

  drwx------ 246  92K Nov 30 21:08 protected

rather than this:

  drwxr-xr-x   4 4.0K Oct 13 12:00 protected

> In the previous message I was writing about very specific problem: extension
> author could put code that steal files or ruin them. To solve it, extension
> developers were force to store user content on a remote server instead of
> local files. I do not think it is significantly safer.

All that code and in various browsers could be unsafe. It is good
solution to browse by using ssh -X user@localhost which does not have
any files to be compromised. Org capture and other files created by
browser can be later transferred to main account.

> And finally, running browser under a different user is likely not enough.
> Browser for working with "external" resources should be isolated from home
> or office network (network namespace, container, virtual machine). There are
> enough web sites that checks which ports are open at least on the localhost.
> Local network could be scanned through browser as well.

I agree, only that it is not practical for majority of us. In my
opinion browsing machines should be separate with few sensitive
files if any.

chroot on GNU/Linux or jail on BSD derivatives may separate execution
of browsers on one computer. Tor may protect source of the computer.

> Page inspector in developer tools has a context menu entry to copy XPath to
> particular element. Likely you will prefer to generate link in a more smart
> and stable way, e,g, by looking for an element with id attribute nearby and
> construct a link relative to it. Maybe it is possible to implement protocol
> handler for custom scheme with XPath references
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/registerProtocolHandler

Another solution is converting HTML to OPML or other type of a tree
and obtaining references and republishing it.

> > My surprise was
> > big when I realized that Org is there with features to manage tasks
> > but does not offer feature to "send the task".
>
> In my opinion, you have demonstrated that emacs and org mode are powerful
> enough to allow users to implement rather specific workflow with a quite
> small piece of code.

Yes and no. Such customizations are not for end users. When I get
mobile device in my hand it allows me to share pictures to email,
chat, web server, to other file managers, and so on. Desktop operating
systems are not so well integrated as mobile systems. End user does
not or cannot learn Emacs Lisp easily. I was programming in Common
Lisp since years and have been using Emacs for that without doing more
with Emacs Lisp than configurations. There is plethora of obstacles
that prevent users integrate features themselves.

> It may be a dedicated package but I do not think it worth including
> such features to the base set. Docs will be longer than the
> code. Personally, I would expect export-based solution that strips
> comments, takes email addresses from some properties and saves
> messages to the draft folder for review before sending them.

Sounds like a queue method.

Jean

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-30 12:31]:
>> I can see that you have implemented many of the suggested commands
>> yourself. Why don't you just propose patches extending the functionality
>> you desire?
>
> Good question, I have no idea in this moment why not. Maybe I just
> make a function that works for me and is not that easy to provide a
> patch that enhances some Org functionality. Example is sending Org
> tasks by email, if somebody of developers wish to do that they can
> do. For me is concept more important than specific function. Concept
> of being able to send any object from anywhere to anybody is more
> important than functions. Then if developers have different concepts
> and do not think of sending or sharing objects, then those are
> colliding minds and different experiences. I need to put more effort
> to write it why, how, where, what, then to write the function itself
> that just works. That is reason why people make separate packages.

I would like to remind you that all the Emacs and org-mode development
is only volunteer-based. As a result, people implement things they are
interested in and they have spare time for. If the features you find
useful are not implemented, there are at least three possibilities:

1. Others do not use them and do not need them.
   In such a case, you can just implement the desired functionality
   privately.

2. Others would find the feature useful, but they never thought of it.
   You can send a feature request to this mailing list. If people are
   interested, they can find time to make that feature into org-mode.
   Or you can provide patches.
   
3. Others would like to have the features, but did not get time to do
   it.
   Again, patches welcome.

In any scenario, it would be useful to send feature request/patch to
this mailing list:

 1. You will let others know about your ideas
 2. You might get new ideas what can improve your workflow or even find
    some superior approach that makes your feature obsolete
 3. You can get the feature into org-mode, likely improved in the
    process

Important note: it is not very useful to dump all the ideas into a
single email in the above scenario. The suggestion would more likely be
noticed if one idea/feature is limited to a single thread.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-01 05:35]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-30 12:31]:
> >> I can see that you have implemented many of the suggested commands
> >> yourself. Why don't you just propose patches extending the functionality
> >> you desire?
> >
> > Good question, I have no idea in this moment why not. Maybe I just
> > make a function that works for me and is not that easy to provide a
> > patch that enhances some Org functionality. Example is sending Org
> > tasks by email, if somebody of developers wish to do that they can
> > do. For me is concept more important than specific function. Concept
> > of being able to send any object from anywhere to anybody is more
> > important than functions. Then if developers have different concepts
> > and do not think of sending or sharing objects, then those are
> > colliding minds and different experiences. I need to put more effort
> > to write it why, how, where, what, then to write the function itself
> > that just works. That is reason why people make separate packages.
> 
> I would like to remind you that all the Emacs and org-mode development
> is only volunteer-based. As a result, people implement things they are
> interested in and they have spare time for. If the features you find
> useful are not implemented, there are at least three possibilities:
> 
> 1. Others do not use them and do not need them.
>    In such a case, you can just implement the desired functionality
>    privately.

I have packages that will be published for that. But not that I want
to engage in discussions what is usable or not. I consider
integrations necessary and known to be necessary and it is not found
in many pieces of software. It is also trivial, so if somebody wants,
may include it.

On mobile device every day I am sharing notes, images, tasks, files
without much thinking. Recent targets where I should share files are
shown automatically. Often recent people to which I have already
shared something are shown automatically. Tasks applications on mobile
phones allow sharing of tasks to other people.

Why then bother group of people that existed longer than I know Org
mode and that in 5 years did not provide any sharing capability that I
know? No need for that.

GNU Hyperbola package is way older and mature than Org mode, it has
region and buffer sharing capability on a key press or invoking a
command.

Let us say that I would propose sharing email in Org mode in the exact
way how I am doing it, that would not work. We already said that
development "does not want structure" and files should be
self-sufficient. But again contradiction is that development does use
structure, only not as foundation.

How I create and share for collaboration?

1. First thinking that person need to do a project, with the first
   task to be made for person I press F4.

   This alone would require Org developers to implement centralized
   contact management which does not exist.

   F4 would require to implement feature where Org file is expanded
   from a template that contains person's name, hyperlinks, dates, and
   various heading sections, prepared table for transactions and
   similar.

2. Then I write some tasks. When I write it, the task is assigned to
   person.

3. I press key and task is sent to that person, because underlying
   program knows which email to use, what type of task is that. I do
   not normally see email software in front of me. It is just sent
   with formatting and signature from my proper identity.

Now I should ask for proposal to implement sending it by email where
there is no central contacts database, no streamlining, where Emacs
would not know automatically which email address to choose, etc. Too
many things. Those are fundamental disagreements.

I also hold Org mode as nice outline for text editing. Keeping notes
in Org is fine but whenever note need to be related to a person I have
to relate it in such way that it is stable for future, so notes are
related in the PostgreSQL database. I must know what I wrote about
specific person at specific time related to specific other objects
accessible on a key press like F3.

While Org mode is editing structure of text there is rigid data
structure. I can assign person as Joe, or as hyperlink to anything, it
is free but that freedom does not help me. What helps is integration,
not freedom.

mutt email reader has aliases for email addresses, like I can write
"Joe" and get email address. But that is not full integration. If I
can search among 200000 email addresses in the database that would be
integration. Software may not be made for that.

If planners of a project such as Org mode do not see or do not know
that sharing of objects has been established as useful feature in
other systems, other methodologies, software, then I feel no urge
personally to propose some new features as it is not goal of that
project.

Doug Engelbart institute influenced WWW and many hypertext systems:
https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/110/460/#2d so if
principles are not followed and collaboration was not prime purpose
from beginning, then I leave that and I consider Org file more
destined for other purposes.

We speak of sharing heading or sharing task or assigning tasks to
people, and sharing tasks to related people and assignees. Well, I did
not start with project management with Org, I have started back in
198x something. We were using TRS-80 clone computers and before these
computers I was using a typewriter and notebooks (paper notebooks) for
project planning. Since 1995 to 1998 my project planning skills
enhanced greatly, and Org was just let us say handy extension to
scattered tasks. For project planning it is useful for me more as a
quick formatter (with errors) that exports nicely to PDF. Before I was
using LateX straight. I am transitioning and moving away from Org to
meta level editing and I will not think of exporting more then a key
press.

If Org already has many features as envisioned by Doug Engelbart, and
there are mobile devices around us, and many applications already
share notes, images, files, contacts around, then it seem to me like
going through a wall. And I do remember asking and proposing that
somewhere 2015, begin 2016 on IRC. Because we have non-organization of
many people from end users to developers and sponsors we cannot get
routed properly to right person who would be handling the thing.

If nobody wants to send task by email when feature has been already
proposed why should I again send it same mailing list.

Just think about impressions on other users, as I am not
important. There are many blocks in using Org. It is software made for
advanced users.

CRM is Customer Relationship Management, it better be called People
Relationship Management. It is a method, not software, although people
refer too often to software. And almost every such software has task
sharing, note sharing, case sharing abilities and collaboration. And I
have used it for years before I even found Org mode. Org mode never
replaced what I used. The Org files became just one node to one bigger
senior structure. And I use various other files as well, like PDF,
images, where all of them are part of senior structure.

From that viewpoint of looking at Org file as elementary object if I
am surprised by people's design that implied to me they do not share
viewpoint of sharing, so there is no personal motivation to do
something what is not wanted or not planned from ground up.

> 2. Others would find the feature useful, but they never thought of
> it.

I do not think that it is proper after 5 years experience with Org
mode. It may be usable to small group and they can anyway copy and
paste into email. I have my system where I can send a fax straight
from Emacs, send SMS, send email, initiate a call and record all those
actions for future and relate them to people. Personally, from
proposing single function I would not have any use. As again I would
not have use without environment such as central database of companies
and people and very quick workflow.

Many times Emacs developers helped in solving bugs and I could finally
get database editing features. It did not work before. One could not
move from a buffer of editing to other buffer when editing a string in
full window. Several times improvements were made when I proposed or
discovered a bug.

> In any scenario, it would be useful to send feature request/patch to
> this mailing list:
> 
>  1. You will let others know about your ideas
>  2. You might get new ideas what can improve your workflow or even find
>     some superior approach that makes your feature obsolete
>  3. You can get the feature into org-mode, likely improved in the
>     process

From these discussion there will be place for people to read, and all
discussions can be easily re-formatted into EmacsWiki or
websites. I can make a meta level website that explains on handling
projects, and tasks. If I find a bug I am reporting anyway.

> Important note: it is not very useful to dump all the ideas into a
> single email in the above scenario. The suggestion would more likely be
> noticed if one idea/feature is limited to a single thread.

When doing anything, one shall have bigger picture in mind. So I do
when we are discussing. It may all become a published set of planning
that not only Org mode would find useful but other systems as well.

We are in progress and we are in a mailing list in collaborative
environment, great thing. By doing this we are influencing outcomes in
future. Other people will built upon ideas.

I have got personal use as anti-mode. The references collected in last
weeks helped me realize that scattered task management is wrong way to
go. I had "tasks", "simple-todos" simpler than tasks, Org files,
various files and that sums to thousands of pieces of information not
necessarily nicely related to other objects. So I have transitioned
and removed those and created generic hyperdocuments that may be
related to anything, that may also keep tasks and can create Org files
on the fly. No more thinking "where is the Org file", I have connected
the dots and related it to meanings so that I think only of meanings
and relations to locate files.

Next step will be to exterminate those parts in Org files that
represent transactions and tasks and move such to relational
database. Org files without tasks and without relations can be well
used for preparation of instructional books and group knowledge as
that is how I use it. Until of it gets transitioned into higher level
hyperdocuments on which a group may collaborate. Then Org file and
also parts of the Org file become an elementary object in a
mixed-object environment.

It takes about 15 seconds to make an Org file on the fly from 19700
various objects.

Jean

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-25 10:17]:
> > While I did use qutebrowser many times, did not know about the
> > scripts. Please state some examples how you call those external
> > scripts. I am interested if:
> 
> - https://www.qutebrowser.org/doc/userscripts.html
> - https://github.com/qutebrowser/experiments/blob/83c2e32bca05023026578ac9b64f7a5938772e9d/misc/userscripts/README.md

I can see that Python is reading QUTE FIFO and then sending commands
to browser from there.

Then I could instruct Emacs to do the same, do you think so? Instead
of invoking command from qutebrowser maybe I could invoke it from
Emacs?

I could make X Window Manager keybinding that invokes Emacs that sends
command to qutebrowser to obtain information.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-25 10:17]:
> > - qutebrowser, once HTML is loaded or any file, can transmit this file
> >   in a script to external program to parse it, collect meta data and
> >   index it somewhere
> 
> .html version of the current page is always available to userscripts via
> $QUTE_HTML variable.
> 
> I use it in my capture package:
> https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref#qute_integration
> 
> > - in particular I would be interested if qutebrowser could be used to
> >   convert the HTML on the fly to OPML by using external script so to
> >   get chunks finely grained such as paragraphs, headings of course are
> >   included making HTML better outlined and structured for further
> >   import into both Org files and yet private Hyperscope database.
> 
> Since you have access to the html file, you can pass it to any app in
> your system. For example, you might convert the page to any other format
> with pandoc or parse it with beautifulsoap in python. However, the file
> will not contain the multimedia content - only bare html.

I understand what you say.

What I do not know is how do I invoke script from qutebrowser to use
the environment variables?

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> I can see that Python is reading QUTE FIFO and then sending commands
> to browser from there.

Yes, but QUTE_FIFO variable is only available for the userscripts called
from inside qutebrowser. Probably, there is some way to obtain FIFO
location, but I am not aware about it.

> Then I could instruct Emacs to do the same, do you think so? Instead
> of invoking command from qutebrowser maybe I could invoke it from
> Emacs?

You can indeed send commands to qutebrowser from Emacs.
Here is an example how I did it:
https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref/blob/master/org-capture-ref.el#L754

> I could make X Window Manager keybinding that invokes Emacs that sends
> command to qutebrowser to obtain information.

I don't think that you can easily obtain information that way. AFAIK,
FIFO is only for sending commands.

On the other hand, there is in-progress plugin API. That should be more
powerful once released. I think it is usable even now, but there is no
official documentation yet (which didn't stop some people from using it).

Best,
Ihor

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> What I do not know is how do I invoke script from qutebrowser to use
> the environment variables?

https://www.qutebrowser.org/doc/userscripts.html

Basically, script can be just a bash script.
You need to put it into userscripts directory and then you can call it
from inside qutebrowser using :spawn --userscript scriptname. That
command can be bound to a key for convenience.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-02 12:53]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > What I do not know is how do I invoke script from qutebrowser to use
> > the environment variables?
> 
> https://www.qutebrowser.org/doc/userscripts.html
> 
> Basically, script can be just a bash script.
> You need to put it into userscripts directory and then you can call it
> from inside qutebrowser using :spawn --userscript scriptname. That
> command can be bound to a key for convenience.

Thank you. Things are not easy to find, I was looking for shell or :!
like in vi

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-11-24 Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> 
> Also, you can capture webpage as a heading using org-capture +
> org-protocol:
> 1. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/org-capture/
> 2. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/org-capture/kkkjlfejijcjgjllecmnejhogpbcigdc
> 3. https://seds.nl/notes/orgmode-firefox-bookmark/
> 4. https://github.com/yantar92/org-capture-ref (shameless plug)

Ideally, the link should be 
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-protocol.html but its content 
is a bit outdated.

It seems, the following link was not explicitly mentioned in this 
thread, however other resources cite it
https://github.com/alphapapa/org-protocol-capture-html

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-02 12:50]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > I can see that Python is reading QUTE FIFO and then sending commands
> > to browser from there.
> 
> Yes, but QUTE_FIFO variable is only available for the userscripts called
> from inside qutebrowser. Probably, there is some way to obtain FIFO
> location, but I am not aware about it.

/run/user/1001/qutebrowser/ipc-21232f297a57a5a743894a0e4a801fc3

It could be detected in that directory.

Thank you, I will use standard approach to bind key from qutebrowser

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-12-01 Jean Louis wrote:
> * Maxim Nikulin [2020-11-30 20:10]:

> To note is that not every PDF has text inside. They may be made from
> images.

Images do not necessary mean absence of text. Tesseract can generate PDF 
files with text layer in addition to original scans.

> and prepares `capturexpdf.sh' to be executable and contains following:
> 
> ,----
> | #!/bin/bash
> | capture="/home/data1/protected/xpdfcaptured.org"
> | entry=`zenity --entry`
> | hyperlink="[[$1:$2][$entry]]"
> | echo $hyperlink >> $capture
> `----

Personally I am considering something like (not ready to use, just quick 
and dirty proof of concept)

------->8-----------
#!/bin/bash
set -e
set -o pipefail

getmeta() {
	file="$1"
	page="$2"
	sel_x="${3:-0}"
	sel_x="${sel_x%.*}"
	sel_y="${4:-0}"
	sel_y="${sel_y%.*}"
	sel_X="${5:-0}"
	sel_X="${sel_X%.*}"
	sel_Y="${6:-0}"
	sel_Y="${sel_Y%.*}"
	url="${7:-}"

	# FIXME obtain page height using pdfinfo
	page_height=792

	echo "[[${file}#page=${page}]]"
	pdfinfo "$file" | sed -n -e 
's/^\(CreationDate\|ModDate\|Author\|Title\|Subject\):\s*\([^ ]\)/- \1 
:: \2/p'
	if [ -n "$sel_Y" ] ; then
		echo "#+begin_quote"
		pdftotext -layout -f "$page" -l "$page" \
			-x "$sel_x" -y "$((page_height - sel_Y))" -W "$((sel_X-sel_x))" -H 
"$((sel_y-sel_Y))" "$file" - \
		   | sed -e 's/^[#*]/,&/' -e 's/\s*$//'
		echo "#+end_quote"
	fi
	if [ -n "$url" ] ; then
		echo -e "\n- Link: [[$url]]"
	fi
}

if [ -z "$1" ] || [ -z "$2" ] ; then
	echo "No file or page" 1>&2
	exit 1
fi

# or emacsclient calling org-capture
getmeta "$@" | xsel -b
--------->8---------

Unfortunately Xpdf quite slow works with large raster images. Evince 
better handles PDF files with wide spread problems (e.g. relying on 
fonts that are not embedded into the document) or with text in non UTF-8 
encodings.

>> Surprisingly PDF viewers built in into browser have fences
>> preventing access of browser extensions to the text content. I did
>> not expect such limitations.
> 
> It does not sound as progress. Evince maybe originates from xpdf but
> does not have nearly these options as xpdf. We go back and become more
> beautiful with software but less useful.

Maybe it is possible to add necessary features to pdf.js and to serve 
the viewer from purely static site (no authorization and no API endpoints).

>> And finally, running browser under a different user is likely not enough.
>> Browser for working with "external" resources should be isolated from home
>> or office network (network namespace, container, virtual machine). There are
>> enough web sites that checks which ports are open at least on the localhost.
>> Local network could be scanned through browser as well.
> 
> I agree, only that it is not practical for majority of us. In my
> opinion browsing machines should be separate with few sensitive
> files if any.

https://stgraber.org/2014/02/09/lxc-1-0-gui-in-containers/
https://gudok.xyz/lxcdeb/

> When I get
> mobile device in my hand it allows me to share pictures to email,
> chat, web server, to other file managers, and so on. Desktop operating
> systems are not so well integrated as mobile systems.

Desktop has a convenient keyboard and a mouse to allow *authoring*, 
mobile devices are more limited in that sense, they are more suitable 
for *sharing* content generated by others or "liking" it. On desktop one 
could add a couple of valuable phrases in several seconds: why the item 
to share is important for particular person at particular moment, 
copy-paste is just a few more keystrokes.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

Thank you for script, I will see to use it. That is exactly that I
need for indexing of some important references. Today I had 
need for this.

> Maybe it is possible to add necessary features to pdf.js and to serve the
> viewer from purely static site (no authorization and no API
> endpoints).

That involves via as web server, and browser. For WWW is
alright. Maybe it could open browser on local files, but is just too
many vias. If I wish to package whole system it requires whole system
distribution. Bunch of files.

> > > And finally, running browser under a different user is likely not enough.
> > > Browser for working with "external" resources should be isolated from home
> > > or office network (network namespace, container, virtual machine). There are
> > > enough web sites that checks which ports are open at least on the localhost.
> > > Local network could be scanned through browser as well.
> > 
> > I agree, only that it is not practical for majority of us. In my
> > opinion browsing machines should be separate with few sensitive
> > files if any.
> 
> https://stgraber.org/2014/02/09/lxc-1-0-gui-in-containers/
> https://gudok.xyz/lxcdeb/

That is something to study and try out.

> > When I get mobile device in my hand it allows me to share pictures
> > to email, chat, web server, to other file managers, and so
> > on. Desktop operating systems are not so well integrated as mobile
> > systems.
> 
> Desktop has a convenient keyboard and a mouse to allow *authoring*, mobile
> devices are more limited in that sense, they are more suitable for *sharing*
> content generated by others or "liking" it. On desktop one could add a
> couple of valuable phrases in several seconds: why the item to share is
> important for particular person at particular moment, copy-paste is just a
> few more keystrokes.

That is one viewpoint but look at Engelbart, did he use mobile device?
Probably nobody even knew about such to exist in future 25 years later
when he invented hypertext systems.

Highlights of the 1968 "Mother of All Demos"
https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/276/000/

We have various communication lines such as email, various chat
messengers, various social networks, fax, SMS, sound output, streaming
video, so anything should be shareable to any communication channel in
better integrated manner.

1. Place icons of small images like friend's faces on desktop.

2. Drag and drop any file to their icons. Finished.

System could do the rest, if it is short file, it could be sent as SMS
or email, if image or something else, send it as attachment or provide
password protected on a website with notification both to SMS and
email.

In general any feature that spares users of typing and making too many
actions is useful.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2020-12-02 19:49]:

> Personally I am considering something like (not ready to use, just quick and
> dirty proof of concept)

That is great and now I came to it. Please send me your .xpdfrc
settings.


> #!/bin/bash
> set -e
> set -o pipefail
> 
> getmeta() {
> 	file="$1"
> 	page="$2"
> 	sel_x="${3:-0}"
> 	sel_x="${sel_x%.*}"
> 	sel_y="${4:-0}"
> 	sel_y="${sel_y%.*}"
> 	sel_X="${5:-0}"
> 	sel_X="${sel_X%.*}"
> 	sel_Y="${6:-0}"
> 	sel_Y="${sel_Y%.*}"
> 	url="${7:-}"
> 
> 	# FIXME obtain page height using pdfinfo
> 	page_height=792
> 
> 	echo "[[${file}#page=${page}]]"
> 	pdfinfo "$file" | sed -n -e
> 's/^\(CreationDate\|ModDate\|Author\|Title\|Subject\):\s*\([^ ]\)/- \1 ::
> \2/p'
> 	if [ -n "$sel_Y" ] ; then
> 		echo "#+begin_quote"
> 		pdftotext -layout -f "$page" -l "$page" \
> 			-x "$sel_x" -y "$((page_height - sel_Y))" -W "$((sel_X-sel_x))" -H
> "$((sel_y-sel_Y))" "$file" - \
> 		   | sed -e 's/^[#*]/,&/' -e 's/\s*$//'
> 		echo "#+end_quote"
> 	fi
> 	if [ -n "$url" ] ; then
> 		echo -e "\n- Link: [[$url]]"
> 	fi
> }
> 
> if [ -z "$1" ] || [ -z "$2" ] ; then
> 	echo "No file or page" 1>&2
> 	exit 1
> fi
> 
> # or emacsclient calling org-capture
> getmeta "$@" | xsel -b
> --------->8---------

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-12-09 Jean Louis wrote:
> * Maxim Nikulin [2020-12-02 19:49]:
> 
>> Personally I am considering something like (not ready to use, just quick and
>> dirty proof of concept)
> 
> That is great and now I came to it. Please send me your .xpdfrc
> settings.

bind ctrl-o any endSelection "run(pdfcapture '%f' '%p' '%x' '%y' '%X' 
'%Y' '%u')"

Certainly named options should be added to the script besides obtaining 
of actual page height. I have not checked if the script is resistant in 
respect to specially crafted file names and other such things. Do not 
know if terminal control sequences could appear in selection. Xpdf has 
known problems with handling of text encodings.

>> #!/bin/bash
>> set -e
>> set -o pipefail
>>
>> getmeta() {
...
>> 	# FIXME obtain page height using pdfinfo
>> 	page_height=792
...
>> 		pdftotext -layout -f "$page" -l "$page" \
>> 			-x "$sel_x" -y "$((page_height - sel_Y))" -W "$((sel_X-sel_x))" -H
                                                          ^^^^^sel_y

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2020-12-09 18:04]:
> bind ctrl-o any endSelection "run(pdfcapture '%f' '%p' '%x' '%y' '%X' '%Y'
> '%u')"

Thank you, I just do not see where the file is writing it to? You may
see the screenshot attached, I am somebody who has thousands of
finel granular PDF references. When you already made it, let me have it.

> Certainly named options should be added to the script besides obtaining of
> actual page height. I have not checked if the script is resistant in respect
> to specially crafted file names and other such things. Do not know if
> terminal control sequences could appear in selection. Xpdf has known
> problems with handling of text encodings.
> 
> > > #!/bin/bash
> > > set -e
> > > set -o pipefail
> > > 
> > > getmeta() {
> ...
> > > 	# FIXME obtain page height using pdfinfo
> > > 	page_height=792
> ...
> > > 		pdftotext -layout -f "$page" -l "$page" \
> > > 			-x "$sel_x" -y "$((page_height - sel_Y))" -W "$((sel_X-sel_x))" -H
>                                                          ^^^^^sel_y

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-12-09 Jean Louis wrote:
> * Maxim Nikulin [2020-12-09 18:04]:
>> bind ctrl-o any endSelection "run(pdfcapture '%f' '%p' '%x' '%y' '%X' '%Y'
>> '%u')"
> 
> Thank you, I just do not see where the file is writing it to? You may
> see the screenshot attached, I am somebody who has thousands of
> finel granular PDF references. When you already made it, let me have it.

In my variant last line of script calls `xsel -b` to copy the note to 
clipboard. I have not tried to use emacs-client to invoke org-capture.

The following capture template pulls the note from clipboard without 
intermediate file:

"* %(org-get-x-clipboard 'CLIPBOARD)
"

>>>> #!/bin/bash
>>>> set -e
>>>> set -o pipefail
>>>>
>>>> getmeta() {
>> ...
>>>> 	# FIXME obtain page height using pdfinfo
>>>> 	page_height=792
>> ...
>>>> 		pdftotext -layout -f "$page" -l "$page" \
>>>> 			-x "$sel_x" -y "$((page_height - sel_Y))" -W "$((sel_X-sel_x))" -H
>>                                                           ^^^^^sel_y
> 
> 

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

A side note: As Alan Schmitt pointed earlier, org-pdftools package
allows creating links to specific pdf page or annotation on the page or
to search string. It requires pdf-tools package as pdf viewer.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-10 03:02]:
> 
> A side note: As Alan Schmitt pointed earlier, org-pdftools package
> allows creating links to specific pdf page or annotation on the page or
> to search string. It requires pdf-tools package as pdf viewer.

Thank you for the reference, it is useful in general.

Personally, the doc-view already offers easy access to pages which
allows for a function to capture Org. Thus there is no personal need
for that purpose to download extra package.

(doc-view-current-page)
(doc-view-goto-page PAGE)

Variable doc-view--current-search-matches contains query and page
number where match is found.

As you pointed it out as answer to xpdf capturing of references let me
give you good case use for xpdf versus Emacs.

We have educational business where clients need to be brought to
specific references quickly without reading all the book and without
opening pages and wasting time. I can tell to staff members to copy 2
configuration files (.xpdfrc and script) in their corresponding target
directories or to download them there, and run xpdf with specific key
as a function where people press a key and describe or annotate the
hyperlink.

That is much much easier than to tell people to open up Emacs, go
through Tutorial, use this or that M-x command or keybindings. Some of
them will be doing it so. Some will be doing straight from xpdf.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-12-11 Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> We have educational business where clients need to be brought to
> specific references quickly without reading all the book and without
> opening pages and wasting time. I can tell to staff members to copy 2
> configuration files (.xpdfrc and script) in their corresponding target
> directories or to download them there, and run xpdf with specific key
> as a function where people press a key and describe or annotate the
> hyperlink.

Frankly speaking, I have missed you point. I wrote that script 
evaluating feasibility of getting more context for a quote from a PDF 
file. If you need to point non-emacs users to particular place in some 
PDF file, browsers has a button to obtain a link for current view 
(position, scale). I do not see any problem to open local PDF files in 
browser. I have not checked however if format of such links is the same 
for Firefox and Chrome.

As an even better approach, I consider merging of independently stored 
PDF file and annotations to it and presenting combined file with native 
PDF annotations. Several years ago I have not find tools for such 
operations, maybe new projects have appeared since that time.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

> As an even better approach, I consider merging of independently stored 
> PDF file and annotations to it and presenting combined file with native 
> PDF annotations. Several years ago I have not find tools for such 
> operations, maybe new projects have appeared since that time.

I think hypothes.is supports pdf annotations (via pdf.js).

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2020-12-11 17:41]:
> 2020-12-11 Jean Louis wrote:
> > 
> > We have educational business where clients need to be brought to
> > specific references quickly without reading all the book and without
> > opening pages and wasting time. I can tell to staff members to copy 2
> > configuration files (.xpdfrc and script) in their corresponding target
> > directories or to download them there, and run xpdf with specific key
> > as a function where people press a key and describe or annotate the
> > hyperlink.
> 
> Frankly speaking, I have missed you point. I wrote that script evaluating
> feasibility of getting more context for a quote from a PDF file. If you need
> to point non-emacs users to particular place in some PDF file, browsers has
> a button to obtain a link for current view (position, scale). I do not see
> any problem to open local PDF files in browser. I have not checked however
> if format of such links is the same for Firefox and Chrome.

Relying on browser could be option here provided that browser can
invoke extenral script.

But thinking of my group of people, we use free software distributions
as endorsed by FSF we do not have neither Firefox nor Chrome. I do not
use it for freedom reasons
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html

Maybe external groups could be handling it with other browsers, just
thinking. Maybe browsers are much more complicated and not made for
PDF browsing and speed of handling PDF with xpdf may be considerable.

I have not explored browsers for PDF reference captures.

I do like Evince, mupdf, zathura, but I will use any PDF viewer if I
have to capture specific page in specific index in the dynamic
knowledge repository on my computer. It will become possible to hire
even 10-50 people at once worldwide who then capture index items and
report to the database directly. Then I can get quickly indexed
various PDF files at once which in turn help our clients to pass the
crash course faster.

While it is easy to teach people to open single program, press a key,
and insert title, it is harder and time consuming to teach random
people how to use Emacs. This may not be true, it is just my current
impression. 

> As an even better approach, I consider merging of independently
> stored PDF file and annotations to it and presenting combined file
> with native PDF annotations. Several years ago I have not find tools
> for such operations, maybe new projects have appeared since that
> time.

Evince: click clipboard icon on the top left side, add annotations,
you can save it as independent file.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-11 18:24]:
> > As an even better approach, I consider merging of independently stored 
> > PDF file and annotations to it and presenting combined file with native 
> > PDF annotations. Several years ago I have not find tools for such 
> > operations, maybe new projects have appeared since that time.
> 
> I think hypothes.is supports pdf annotations (via pdf.js).

For public annotations that is great.

For private annotations with hypothes.is one can install it on own
server and protect system for one's own group. That will do only a
group that is serious enough or have serious demands for annotations.

Myself I do not prefer having too much software installed online
especially not databases that are private. What is private I keep off
the Internet. If I wish to communicate over Internet to somebody I
always establish first encrypted line. So I am about to develop system
to provide annotation to somebody over Internet, without compromising
security of the file or annotation.

As each hyperdocument has its unique ID, it is easy to expand it into:

example.com/1/2/3/4 for ID 1234

That would be HTML with PDF annotation where user could open PDF
inside of that HTML or click on the PDF to open it. I do hope that
pdfjs does support specific page jumps. And such annotation on HTML
should work with or without Javascript. Those without can simply open
PDF file and manually jump to specific page as annotated and
instructed.

iceweasel-uxp on Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre does not have pdfjs
built-in as I see it, GNU Icecat has it.

Then I would inject web server password protection and protect it from
public. But that does not protect the document of those who could
intrude into the server and also does not protect from cracking
attempts as username and password are not alone well secure. Better
would be having the encrypted HTML that is protected by user's private
PGP key, but I have no idea if such technology exists yet.

It seems that the framework exists:
https://www.w3.org/Conferences/WWW4/Papers2/245.html

but it is unclear which browsers would support such displaying of PGP
encrypted data. With Emacs it would be trivial, but asking variety of
users to install Emacs is not convenient though desired.

Workflow would be:

1. Annotate PDF, provide maybe personalized assignment.

2. Hit key. This would then cause annoation to be published with the
   hyperlink to PDF and page reference, it would encrypt and prepare
   the file for reomte user including it would inform remote user by
   email and SMS of the assignment. No tedious copy and paste.

3. User would report if it is done or not done. Reporting could be
   done also by single click or report written followed by click (HTTP
   POST). Best would be if report is PGP signed by user's verified and
   trusted key to have proper tracking and evidnece of the action.

Same workflow could be implemented from Org type of annotations.

Jean

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> For private annotations with hypothes.is one can install it on own
> server and protect system for one's own group. That will do only a
> group that is serious enough or have serious demands for annotations.

> Myself I do not prefer having too much software installed online
> especially not databases that are private. What is private I keep off
> the Internet. If I wish to communicate over Internet to somebody I
> always establish first encrypted line.

I have hypothes.is installed inside docker container locally. No serious
protection is required in such case (at least, no more than one would
use to protect private files from dangerous software like browsers).

Public annotations would better be just exported to a public server
(automatically or not).

> So I am about to develop system to provide annotation to somebody over
> Internet, without compromising security of the file or annotation.
>
> As each hyperdocument has its unique ID, it is easy to expand it into:
>
> example.com/1/2/3/4 for ID 1234
>
> That would be HTML with PDF annotation where user could open PDF
> inside of that HTML or click on the PDF to open it. I do hope that
> pdfjs does support specific page jumps. And such annotation on HTML
> should work with or without Javascript. Those without can simply open
> PDF file and manually jump to specific page as annotated and
> instructed.

I am not sure how it is different from using hypothes.is for the same
purpose. Note that hypothes.is uses pdf fingerprinting, so you don't
even need to store pdf on server side. If user can open the pdf
(obtained from you directly, for example), hypothes.is will
automatically show the up-to-date annotations shared via public
hypothes.is instance for that particular user.

> Then I would inject web server password protection and protect it from
> public. But that does not protect the document of those who could
> intrude into the server and also does not protect from cracking
> attempts as username and password are not alone well secure. Better
> would be having the encrypted HTML that is protected by user's private
> PGP key, but I have no idea if such technology exists yet.

hypothes.is uses OAuth mechanism with fine-grained control over the
access to various annotations. Also, one can run it inside encrypted
docker container (or even inside virtual machine) reducing the risk if
server is compromised.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> While it is easy to teach people to open single program, press a key,
> and insert title, it is harder and time consuming to teach random
> people how to use Emacs. This may not be true, it is just my current
> impression. 

I guess one would not need to teach people about everything in Emacs. If
the aim is just editing and viewing PDF, one can provide custom Emacs
configuration with added toolbars and menu items for common operations
with pdf. I do not see why it would be any different from specialised
pdf viewers. 

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-13 03:39]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > For private annotations with hypothes.is one can install it on own
> > server and protect system for one's own group. That will do only a
> > group that is serious enough or have serious demands for annotations.
> 
> > Myself I do not prefer having too much software installed online
> > especially not databases that are private. What is private I keep off
> > the Internet. If I wish to communicate over Internet to somebody I
> > always establish first encrypted line.
> 
> I have hypothes.is installed inside docker container locally. No serious
> protection is required in such case (at least, no more than one would
> use to protect private files from dangerous software like browsers).

I can install it on VPS which is definitely in plan. Locally I do not
think so, as locally I have dynamic knowledge repository that may
export to Org if necessary or accessed by collaborative group of
people. 

> Public annotations would better be just exported to a public server
> (automatically or not).

When they are public yes. I have it rather private.

> > example.com/1/2/3/4 for ID 1234
> >
> > That would be HTML with PDF annotation where user could open PDF
> > inside of that HTML or click on the PDF to open it. I do hope that
> > pdfjs does support specific page jumps. And such annotation on HTML
> > should work with or without Javascript. Those without can simply open
> > PDF file and manually jump to specific page as annotated and
> > instructed.
> 
> I am not sure how it is different from using hypothes.is for the same
> purpose. Note that hypothes.is uses pdf fingerprinting, so you don't
> even need to store pdf on server side. If user can open the pdf
> (obtained from you directly, for example), hypothes.is will
> automatically show the up-to-date annotations shared via public
> hypothes.is instance for that particular user.

The difference is that annotation is separate from file, and there is
no need for Javascript. Hyperdocument may contain the PDF file and the
annotation together, dispatched to somebody, or referenced from WWW
page. It is lightweight. HTML file can be very small and speedy
loaded. 

> > Then I would inject web server password protection and protect it from
> > public. But that does not protect the document of those who could
> > intrude into the server and also does not protect from cracking
> > attempts as username and password are not alone well secure. Better
> > would be having the encrypted HTML that is protected by user's private
> > PGP key, but I have no idea if such technology exists yet.
> 
> hypothes.is uses OAuth mechanism with fine-grained control over the
> access to various annotations. Also, one can run it inside encrypted
> docker container (or even inside virtual machine) reducing the risk if
> server is compromised.

That is great yet introduces 2 different tools for one purpose. While
I support Hypothesi.is in general and will be using its hyperlinks for
some public purposes, those private purposes will remain off line and
I need not have any extra software to have my group of people learning
from annotated PDFs. They would be in local area network or VPN in
collaborative environment backed by database where they can open and
read PDFs without browser, Emacs is enough to browse it or exported to
some other format I can make it as well HTML or provide hyperlinks as
I wish, including to open it with the PDF in a built-in browser.  Each
software for its purpose. I recommended hypothesi.is but I already
have similar system built on same principles of Engelbart just as
Hypothes.is

Jean

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-13 03:45]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > While it is easy to teach people to open single program, press a key,
> > and insert title, it is harder and time consuming to teach random
> > people how to use Emacs. This may not be true, it is just my current
> > impression. 
> 
> I guess one would not need to teach people about everything in Emacs. If
> the aim is just editing and viewing PDF, one can provide custom Emacs
> configuration with added toolbars and menu items for common operations
> with pdf. I do not see why it would be any different from specialised
> pdf viewers. 

To see that assign Emacs tutorial to several people and observe
results. I do.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 4:13 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Ihor Radchenko" <yantar92@gmail.com>
> Cc: "Maxim Nikulin" <manikulin@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files
>
> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-13 03:45]:
> > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> >
> > > While it is easy to teach people to open single program, press a key,
> > > and insert title, it is harder and time consuming to teach random
> > > people how to use Emacs. This may not be true, it is just my current
> > > impression.
> >
> > I guess one would not need to teach people about everything in Emacs. If
> > the aim is just editing and viewing PDF, one can provide custom Emacs
> > configuration with added toolbars and menu items for common operations
> > with pdf. I do not see why it would be any different from specialised
> > pdf viewers.
>
> To see that assign Emacs tutorial to several people and observe
> results. I do.

It gets hard and you can see them sweating.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2020-12-13 21:02]:
> > Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2020 at 4:13 PM
> > From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> > To: "Ihor Radchenko" <yantar92@gmail.com>
> > Cc: "Maxim Nikulin" <manikulin@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files
> >
> > * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-13 03:45]:
> > > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > >
> > > > While it is easy to teach people to open single program, press a key,
> > > > and insert title, it is harder and time consuming to teach random
> > > > people how to use Emacs. This may not be true, it is just my current
> > > > impression.
> > >
> > > I guess one would not need to teach people about everything in Emacs. If
> > > the aim is just editing and viewing PDF, one can provide custom Emacs
> > > configuration with added toolbars and menu items for common operations
> > > with pdf. I do not see why it would be any different from specialised
> > > pdf viewers.
> >
> > To see that assign Emacs tutorial to several people and observe
> > results. I do.
> 
> It gets hard and you can see them sweating.

Quite contrary, they go through tutorial and learn whati is in
tutorial. But it will take few hours, one day. Then it needs habit.

Easier is to click and click n for next and p for previous. Once you
find reference click F5 and describe the item.

That is easier than teaching people Emacs. Then group of people can
capture PDF references quite efficiently.

Jean

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-14 03:32]:
> In another email you mentioned:
> 
> > Easier is to click and click n for next and p for previous. Once you
> > find reference click F5 and describe the item.
> > 
> > That is easier than teaching people Emacs. Then group of people can
> > capture PDF references quite efficiently.
> 
> One can make a custom Emacs configuration binding "n" for next, "p" for
> previous, and "F5" to describe item. What should be taught?

It was related to using xpdf to capture annotations and references.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

>> I guess one would not need to teach people about everything in Emacs. If
>> the aim is just editing and viewing PDF, one can provide custom Emacs
>> configuration with added toolbars and menu items for common operations
>> with pdf. I do not see why it would be any different from specialised
>> pdf viewers. 
>
> To see that assign Emacs tutorial to several people and observe
> results. I do.

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

In another email you mentioned:

> Easier is to click and click n for next and p for previous. Once you
> find reference click F5 and describe the item.
> 
> That is easier than teaching people Emacs. Then group of people can
> capture PDF references quite efficiently.

One can make a custom Emacs configuration binding "n" for next, "p" for
previous, and "F5" to describe item. What should be taught?

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

>> I guess one would not need to teach people about everything in Emacs. If
>> the aim is just editing and viewing PDF, one can provide custom Emacs
>> configuration with added toolbars and menu items for common operations
>> with pdf. I do not see why it would be any different from specialised
>> pdf viewers. 
>
> To see that assign Emacs tutorial to several people and observe
> results. I do.

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

In another email you mentioned:

> Easier is to click and click n for next and p for previous. Once you
> find reference click F5 and describe the item.
> 
> That is easier than teaching people Emacs. Then group of people can
> capture PDF references quite efficiently.

One can make a custom Emacs configuration binding "n" for next, "p" for
previous, and "F5" to describe item. What should be taught?

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-13 03:39]:
>> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>> I have hypothes.is installed inside docker container locally. No serious
>> protection is required in such case (at least, no more than one would
>> use to protect private files from dangerous software like browsers).
>
> I can install it on VPS which is definitely in plan. Locally I do not
> think so, as locally I have dynamic knowledge repository that may
> export to Org if necessary or accessed by collaborative group of
> people. 

I am actually just trying hyposes.is now (after you reminded me about
it). For me, the main advantage is not for pdfs, but rather the ability
to have pdf-like annotations in web-pages: highlights, comments, etc.
Combined with local ArchiveBox [1] storage, I can get annotations for my
local web archive.

[1] https://github.com/ArchiveBox/ArchiveBox

>> I am not sure how it is different from using hypothes.is for the same
>> purpose. Note that hypothes.is uses pdf fingerprinting, so you don't
>> even need to store pdf on server side. If user can open the pdf
>> (obtained from you directly, for example), hypothes.is will
>> automatically show the up-to-date annotations shared via public
>> hypothes.is instance for that particular user.
>
> The difference is that annotation is separate from file, and there is
> no need for Javascript. Hyperdocument may contain the PDF file and the
> annotation together, dispatched to somebody, or referenced from WWW
> page. It is lightweight. HTML file can be very small and speedy
> loaded. 

Hypothes.is does not store the file - just file fingerprint and
information required to identify and annotation positions within the
file.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-14 15:55]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-13 03:39]:
> >> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> >> I have hypothes.is installed inside docker container locally. No serious
> >> protection is required in such case (at least, no more than one would
> >> use to protect private files from dangerous software like browsers).
> >
> > I can install it on VPS which is definitely in plan. Locally I do not
> > think so, as locally I have dynamic knowledge repository that may
> > export to Org if necessary or accessed by collaborative group of
> > people. 
> 
> I am actually just trying hyposes.is now (after you reminded me about
> it). For me, the main advantage is not for pdfs, but rather the ability
> to have pdf-like annotations in web-pages: highlights, comments, etc.
> Combined with local ArchiveBox [1] storage, I can get annotations for my
> local web archive.
> 
> [1] https://github.com/ArchiveBox/ArchiveBox

I have seen it, good tool and it makes sense to have one's own archive
as web pages really disappear. You reminded me of so many references
that it helped me streamline my workflows for soon future and new projects.

> >> I am not sure how it is different from using hypothes.is for the same
> >> purpose. Note that hypothes.is uses pdf fingerprinting, so you don't
> >> even need to store pdf on server side. If user can open the pdf
> >> (obtained from you directly, for example), hypothes.is will
> >> automatically show the up-to-date annotations shared via public
> >> hypothes.is instance for that particular user.
> >
> > The difference is that annotation is separate from file, and there is
> > no need for Javascript. Hyperdocument may contain the PDF file and the
> > annotation together, dispatched to somebody, or referenced from WWW
> > page. It is lightweight. HTML file can be very small and speedy
> > loaded. 
> 
> Hypothes.is does not store the file - just file fingerprint and
> information required to identify and annotation positions within the
> file.

OK and not that I meant it stores files. I was rather referring to
collaborative work within a room or distant servers over VPN where
people collaboratively open references to PDF files. Such PDF files
can be stored on a local computer, could be fetched from server, but
not from public server. This is more privacy issue. Hypothes.is as
public online server must have access to files to show the annotation
as that implies that for example those 1300 files here would need to
be placed online where they by their nature do not belong. They could
be placed on a computer within a course room where each student may
access them.

Hypothes.is as online instance is then useful for those online files,
and WWW pages, but the approach of having private archive and then
annotating such is even better. Still the hypothes.is is separate
dynamic knowledge repository for annotations. Different database,
different set of rules but same open hyperdocument project set of
principles. So I better stick to one database, not to two.

And I just guess that hypothes.is could be invoked from hyperlinks to
show annotations even if not stored yet. That would be great feature,
to just provide section of text with few hyperlinks where user may
start to read the annotation and then open the PDF file to see the
context around the annotation.

Jean

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[TRS-80]

On 2020-12-14 14:08, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-14 15:55]:
>> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>> 
>> > * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-13 03:39]:
>> >> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>> >> hypothes.is
>> >
>> > I can install it on VPS which is definitely in plan. Locally I do not
>> > locally I have dynamic knowledge repository
>> 
>> I am actually just trying hyposes.is now (after you reminded me about
>> it). For me, the main advantage is not for pdfs, but rather the 
>> ability
>> to have pdf-like annotations in web-pages: highlights, comments, etc.
>> Combined with local ArchiveBox [1] storage, I can get annotations for 
>> my
>> local web archive.
>> 
>> [1] https://github.com/ArchiveBox/ArchiveBox
> 
> I have seen it, good tool and it makes sense to have one's own archive
> as web pages really disappear. You reminded me of so many references
> that it helped me streamline my workflows for soon future and new 
> projects.

> Hypothes.is as online instance is then useful for those online files,
> and WWW pages, but the approach of having private archive and then
> annotating such is even better. Still the hypothes.is is separate
> dynamic knowledge repository for annotations. Different database,
> different set of rules but same open hyperdocument project set of
> principles. So I better stick to one database, not to two.

We are getting further and further afield from Orgmode discussion,
however I wanted to share the following article with anyone else who
followed this part of the thread all the way to this point:

How to annotate literally everything[0]
by karlicoss

There are quite a lot of other very interesting articles there as well
in the same (and related) veins.  Enjoy!

Cheers,
TRS-80

[0] https://beepb00p.xyz/annotating.html

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* TRS-80 <lists.trs-80@isnotmyreal.name> [2020-12-15 01:29]:
> How to annotate literally everything[0]
> by karlicoss
> 
> There are quite a lot of other very interesting articles there as well
> in the same (and related) veins.  Enjoy!
> 
> Cheers,
> TRS-80
> 
> [0] https://beepb00p.xyz/annotating.html

Excellent, things to research, thank you.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

TRS-80 <lists.trs-80@isnotmyreal.name> writes:

> We are getting further and further afield from Orgmode discussion,
> however I wanted to share the following article with anyone else who
> followed this part of the thread all the way to this point:

Oops. Actually, hypothes.is is related to org-mode in my mind. Mostly as
a reference of implementation of fine-grained links to
web-pages/documents. I wish org-mode links had universal support to
position inside the document the link is pointing to (similar what is
already present in file link to org files, where we can refer to
specific heading inside the referenced file). It would be great if
org-mode extended the link syntax to define position inside the text
file/web-page/video/pdf/etc. Then, packages like org-pdftools would not
need to invent new link types just to be able to refer to specific page
or annotation inside a pdf file.

The relevant feature request is in my todo list.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-15 07:39]:
> TRS-80 <lists.trs-80@isnotmyreal.name> writes:
> 
> > We are getting further and further afield from Orgmode discussion,
> > however I wanted to share the following article with anyone else who
> > followed this part of the thread all the way to this point:
> 
> Oops. Actually, hypothes.is is related to org-mode in my mind. Mostly as
> a reference of implementation of fine-grained links to
> web-pages/documents. I wish org-mode links had universal support to
> position inside the document the link is pointing to (similar what is
> already present in file link to org files, where we can refer to
> specific heading inside the referenced file). It would be great if
> org-mode extended the link syntax to define position inside the text
> file/web-page/video/pdf/etc. Then, packages like org-pdftools would not
> need to invent new link types just to be able to refer to specific page
> or annotation inside a pdf file.

For PDF and video with specific start time I am using different type
of hyperlinks and not Org hyperlinks. So I was under impression that
Org hyperlinks to PDF support specific page. I have even prepared
myself to start including such in instructional manual. But do they?
It implies that PDF viewer setting should be per user configurable to
accept the page argument.

One possible solution could be this. For annotations, hypothes.is uses
Javascript library http://annotatorjs.org/ and I have not finished
research of it. I just have some slight idea that the whole annotation
and position of annotation could be captured in a hyperlink to it by
using that library.

That, if only possible, would enable Org without further modifications
to use hyperlinks to annotated online WWW pages and online PDFs.

Maybe you know Javascript and you can try?

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[TRS-80]

On 2020-12-14 23:42, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> TRS-80 <lists.trs-80@isnotmyreal.name> writes:
> 
>> We are getting further and further afield from Orgmode discussion,
>> however I wanted to share the following article with anyone else who
>> followed this part of the thread all the way to this point:
> 
> Oops. Actually, hypothes.is is related to org-mode in my mind. Mostly 
> as
> a reference of implementation of fine-grained links to
> web-pages/documents. I wish org-mode links had universal support to
> position inside the document the link is pointing to (similar what is
> already present in file link to org files, where we can refer to
> specific heading inside the referenced file). It would be great if
> org-mode extended the link syntax to define position inside the text
> file/web-page/video/pdf/etc. Then, packages like org-pdftools would not
> need to invent new link types just to be able to refer to specific page
> or annotation inside a pdf file.
> 
> The relevant feature request is in my todo list.
> 
> Best,
> Ihor

Oh no, I think you guys are fine.  I just didn't want to get into big
discussion about things on that website, as there are just soooo many
things there to discuss...

So when I said that, I was referring mostly to myself and also as a way
to sort of pre-emptively try and head off too big diversion...  :)

Cheers,
TRS-80

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> For PDF and video with specific start time I am using different type
> of hyperlinks and not Org hyperlinks. So I was under impression that
> Org hyperlinks to PDF support specific page. I have even prepared
> myself to start including such in instructional manual. But do they?
> It implies that PDF viewer setting should be per user configurable to
> accept the page argument.

Manual does not mention that. However, looking into the code handling
opening file links, I can see that it is actually possible. By default,
the link like file:document.pdf::10 would run system command used to
open pdfs with "document.pdf::10" argument. Whether that system command
supports such kind of argument is another question (answer: probably,
no). On the other hand, user can customise org-file-apps variable and
put a lisp function to handle link opening. That function can transform
the "document.pdf::10" into something that can be passed to the pdf
viewer in system.

> One possible solution could be this. For annotations, hypothes.is uses
> Javascript library http://annotatorjs.org/ and I have not finished
> research of it. I just have some slight idea that the whole annotation
> and position of annotation could be captured in a hyperlink to it by
> using that library.

Thanks for the link.

> Maybe you know Javascript and you can try?

I don't know Javascript


Best,
Ihor

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Tom Gillespie]

To hop in on the hypothes.is thread. I have spent quite a bit of time
working with hypothes.is and related tooling (mostly in python), so
here is a brain dump on interactions between org and hypothes.is. As
others have mentioned, this could easily be its own thread. Best!
Tom

A quick note on security for hypothes.is. Last I checked (about 30
seconds ago) there is still no way to control access to groups, if the
identifier for the group leaks then anyone can access it. This is not
the case for private annotations, those can only be seen by someone
with your api key (hopefully just you).

If you are looking for a light weight client that is hypothesis
compatible that could be used to build a tool that can push
annotations to an alternate backend then
https://github.com/judell/hlib might be a reasonable place to start.
Jon has previously used that to create a client that sent annotations
to an alternate backend, which could in theory be an elisp
implementation of a server for the w3c annotation standard that could
feed things to org-protocol (or similar).

If people are interested in this for org-mode I would suggest that a
starting point would be to write an elisp implementation that can
consume and produce the w3c web annotation standard format for
annotations and/or the hypothesis api format.

There are at least 3 different ways that web annotations can be
anchored, offset, xpath, exact + prefix/suffix. In principle you could
translate those into urls and use query parameters to encode the
target selectors. The problem that you will run into is that there are
some rather sizeable selector patterns like the example below (that I
happened to have up in another terminal) which will be a pain to work
with as urls. As a result of this a reasonable workflow would be to
create a custom link type for the hypothes.is annotation urls e.g. the
equivalent of #+link: hyp https://hyp.is/ and simply paste in a
shortened form of the share links. In addition one might want some
additional tooling so that the contents of the annotation could be
retrieved and cached, or retrieved, transformed, and embedded in the
document as an appendix during export (or similar).

Unifying org-capture, org-protocol, and general org hyperlinking with
the w3c spec seems like it would be hard in the general case, but for
specific use cases I can imagine that some reduced syntax could be
created that would fit in an org hyperlink. It actually would probably
be easier to do this by
coming up with a way to convert structured org sections or blocks to
and from the w3c spec, name those, and then use org hyperlinks to
refer to
the annotations directly in an org file that functioned as an
annotation store. Much less overhead than trying to set up a
stripped-down stand-alone web annotation server, and if you can
produce json to match the hypothes.is API then you could make use of
that to publish and share annotations/links when you go to publish an
org document.

'selector': [{'type': 'FragmentSelector',
     'value': 'pes-1',
     'conformsTo': 'https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3236'},
    {'type': 'RangeSelector',
     'endOffset': 92,
     'startOffset': 86,
     'endContainer':
'/div[4]/div[1]/div[4]/div[1]/article[1]/section[1]/article[1]/div[1]/div[2]/ul[1]/li[1]/div[3]/div[2]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/figure[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[2]/div[1]/div[1]',
     'startContainer':
'/div[4]/div[1]/div[4]/div[1]/article[1]/section[1]/article[1]/div[1]/div[2]/ul[1]/li[1]/div[3]/div[2]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/figure[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[1]/div[2]/div[1]/div[1]'},
    {'end': 3034, 'type': 'TextPositionSelector', 'start': 3028},
    {'type': 'TextQuoteSelector',
     'exact': '100kHz',
     'prefix': ' DC - 20kHz\nSampling frequency: ',
     'suffix': '\nOnboard stimulatorNeural Interf'}]}

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Maxim Nikulin]

2020-12-15 Ihor Radchenko wrote:
 >
> Then, packages like org-pdftools would not
> need to invent new link types just to be able to refer to specific page
> or annotation inside a pdf file.

Firefox (I do not know if pdf.js is cut off from IceCat) have a special 
button to obtain link like

file:///path/to/file.pdf#page=5&zoom=310,131,734

Chromium handles page=N part successfully. Unfortunately vertical axis 
has the opposite direction. Exactly the same discrepancy of vertical 
offset notion I have noticed with xpdf vs. pdftotext.

I suppose, it is reasonable to have #page=N form at least in exported 
documents. A simple wrappers should allow other applications to open 
files at the specified page. Anyway every desktop PDF viewer has its own 
way to specify page number.

I do not think that either of browsers would agree to change base point 
of vertical offset. Maybe additional parameter could be added to specify 
direction and to avoid ambiguity.

Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-16 05:55]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > For PDF and video with specific start time I am using different type
> > of hyperlinks and not Org hyperlinks. So I was under impression that
> > Org hyperlinks to PDF support specific page. I have even prepared
> > myself to start including such in instructional manual. But do they?
> > It implies that PDF viewer setting should be per user configurable to
> > accept the page argument.
> 
> Manual does not mention that. However, looking into the code handling
> opening file links, I can see that it is actually possible. By default,
> the link like file:document.pdf::10 would run system command used to
> open pdfs with "document.pdf::10" argument. Whether that system command
> supports such kind of argument is another question (answer: probably,
> no). On the other hand, user can customise org-file-apps variable and
> put a lisp function to handle link opening. That function can transform
> the "document.pdf::10" into something that can be passed to the pdf
> viewer in system.

I have seen it somewhere that way and assumed that Org does support
it. From 14000+ PDF references to specific pages I did not once use
Org link to open such. That was in the queue when I export references
to Org.

If it does not support it is easy to make it by user options.

> > One possible solution could be this. For annotations, hypothes.is uses
> > Javascript library http://annotatorjs.org/ and I have not finished
> > research of it. I just have some slight idea that the whole annotation
> > and position of annotation could be captured in a hyperlink to it by
> > using that library.
> 
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> > Maybe you know Javascript and you can try?
> 
> I don't know Javascript

What I would like to make possible is direct hyperlink annotated PDF
file that does not store any annotations online. And I am thinking
maybe that annotatorjs.org provides that possibility.

It could be something in the following sense:

http://www.example.com/annotator.js&file=https://www.example.com/my-file.pdf&page=12&annotation=my%20annotation%20here

That is how I imagine that. Then we could construct annotating
hyperlinks automatically that do not disturb the user and when opened
the annotatorjs.org could show the annotated PDF file.

If somebody could at least explain if such URL could possibly work
with the Javascript, then I can start from there.

Jean