From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Modifier Keys and the Archaic Meta Key Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 15:45:32 +0300 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22188"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/+ (1036f0e) (2020-10-18) Cc: Help Gnu Emacs To: Christopher Dimech Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 25 13:47:34 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kWfQs-0005cp-3h for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 13:47:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53922 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kWfQr-00022q-5j for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 08:47:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36758) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kWfPa-00021H-H3 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 08:46:14 -0400 Original-Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:57941) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kWfPX-0007vQ-86 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 08:46:14 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.51]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002A0B39.000000005F957370.00007DF3; Sun, 25 Oct 2020 12:45:36 +0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/25 08:45:37 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:124706 Archived-At: * Christopher Dimech [2020-10-25 13:07]: > Dear Compeers, > > In 1975, when Richard Stallman and Guy Steele started designing > keybindings they used the keyboards used by Lisp Machines which > had Modifier Keys like Meta. History is very interesting. I have read sometimes contradictory hystorical statements, that both of them made the Emacs where it was referred to GNU Emacs context. Then before few days I found this Emacs development history: https://www.jwz.org/doc/emacs-timeline.html This shows that GNU Emacs is quite a different and separate peace of software from the original 1976 Emacs, and I am not referring to anything related to key design. Maybe RMS can tell us more about the timeline. > Today, Lisp Machines and their keyboards are only historical > keyboards whose use has become academic. >From a viewpoint of average user shopping for Microsoft-like keyboards in stores, that is very undertstandable as market is overwhelmed by those new keyboards that are everywhere around us in general. Times are changing and we do not know the future. I would prefer more different meta or modifiers keys, and I have them too few. For example on my laptop I have special laptop modifier Fn, Ctrl, Super, Alt, on left side Alt, Menu type and Ctrl, I would prefer more of such for better keybindings and more efficient work. Look at this interesting keyboard, it is configurable: https://kono.store/products/sa-symbiosis-keycaps?variant=12358483968100 > Thusly, I disapprove of the practice of continuing with the use of > the Modifier Key Mnemonic 'M' in documentation and code. Perhaps a > historical note can be included in the documentation about > historical aspects, however in terms of use and functionality, it is > not strategically productive to continue with the 'M' Mnemonic for > things that do not exist. While I do not disapprove the practice itself, I suggest improvements in documentation. >From Emacs Glossary: Meta is the name of a modifier bit which you can use in a command character. To enter a meta character, you hold down the key while typing the character. We refer to such characters with names that start with ‘Meta-’ (usually written ‘M-’ for short). For example, ‘M-<’ is typed by holding down and at the same time typing ‘<’ (which itself is done, on most terminals, by holding down and typing ‘,’). *Note Meta: User Input. On some terminals, the key is actually labeled or . Alt is the name of a modifier bit that a keyboard input character may have. To make a character Alt, type it while holding down the key. Such characters are given names that start with ‘-’ (usually written ‘A-’ for short). (Note that many terminals have a key labeled that is really a key.) *Note Alt: User Input. That is true that references to Alt and Meta are there for historical reasons. So it says in the manual. Today there are other reasons and the definition of M-x is little different than how it was originally meant. Today M in M-x is not any more Alt only, it can be anything, especially how it says in the manual, Meta is anyway converted internally into ESC. Maybe it will be surprising to you, I am one of people that often need to use ESC as Meta key. There are examples of using Emacs on LineageOS/Replicant/Android system where key such as ALT is not displayed but ESC exists, depends of the keyboard being set. There are examples when using Fvwm Crystal Window Manager where ALT is automatically bound to its functions, there is example with the EXWM Emacs X Window Manager where launching new instance of Emacs with `emacs -q` especially for debugging purposes requires usage of ESC as Meta key instead of Alt as Meta key. Emacs was used widely on terminals, so it is understandable. Me personally I know a military organization in Europe that uses many terminals connected to main UNIX server. While obsolete in personal computing they may not be obsolete for organizations world wide. I can imagine that back in time computers were extremely expensive and using multiple terminals was cost effective. Today it is not as terminals are simply not easily to find on the market. But it is today less cost effective to use computers who anyway only connects to their servers for simple communication. Some companies like the Internet caffe in Munich, Germany at the central train station used computers without disks to boot from network, so they made it cost effective to spare on hard disks, maybe they still do. Terminals as such represent more safe technology as they are usually directly connected through serial ports to the main server. They are not using insecure wireless networking neither Internet. Yet they are not available and serial ports are as well harder and harder to find, right? Some are creating terminals like these: - https://hackaday.io/project/13273-diy-vt100-a-miniature-hardware-terminal - https://thehighnibble.com/vt132/ yet they will not use any special keys on their whatever keyboards. Today M-x means and could mean CAPS-LOCK-x and it could mean left menu key, it could mean left Ctrl, it could mean ESC, or some other key, that is all configurable (I guess). So meaning changed, it is not just Meta, but it is better to refer to Meta for Emacs extended commands then referring to ALT or S because settings are configurable, if Emacs would refer to ALT, > The Super Key Mnemonic is currently 's' (small letter s) which > conflicts the the usual letter 's'. To distinguish Modifier Keys, > Upper Case should be made a rule, with the Super Key Mnemonic > being set to 'P' (the middle letter in Super). Interetsting observation. > Modifier Keys customarily are categorised by priority as follows. > Focus should be on Priority Levels rather just a letter among > five Modifier Keys. Such discussion would make commands much > easier to figure out. > > Priority 1: Control Key 'C' > Priority 2: Alternate Key 'A' > Priority 3: Hyper Key 'H' > Priority 4: Super Key 'P' (for middle letter, instead of 's') > Priority 5: Shift Key 'S' I think even those priorities you mention are not widely known. Another point is that LISP and dialects as Scheme are getting more and more popular today, people seek the return of the Lisp Machines, there is Mezzano (maybe spelling mistake) LISP OS, and so much more comes back to Lisp these years and this may lead to sudden surge in production of such specialized keyboards. I would be one buying such, I need more modifiers. Btw. there is new Symbolics http://symbolics-dks.com/ and still providing Genera for Unix. Keyboards probably not. What about those Apple based keyboards they have CONTROL, OPTION (alt), COMMAND so in their case they write "alt" with small letters as they did not probably have Alternative originally. On my Bluetooth keyboard it is like that too, it is control, option, command. It would not quite alright to say ALT-x instead of M-x as on their keyboards it is "Option" and users are maybe (just guessing) used to Option notation. > This evaluation and modifications outlined is useful for users > today, whilst continuing with archaic elaboration on 1975 Lisp > Keyboards has become unproductive for new users. >From viewpoint of using exclusively ALT yes or making it clear for new users on Windoze computers, then maybe yes. And there are other viewpoints: - if notation is changed, then historical wide usage of notation M-x would become surprising for many existing Emacs users. It would be difficult to accommodate new users for the sake of existing users. It is easier to adopt some modification to the definition of the M-x then change the notation. There is also nothing wrong for users to understand the etymology of M-x. - More important is how Emacs have got its image by the M-x, as M-x now became new meaning in itself, it became part of the culture. Examples: https://emacslife.wordpress.com/about/ where website has title M-x emacs-life RET and https://www.zazzle.com/m_x_mug_mode_emacs_mug-168997655186727276 with the mug for Emacs with M-x M-x sleep -- Jean Louis