A survey for Emacs users

A survey for Emacs users

[Teemu Likonen]

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Hello

There is an open survey at the moment for Emacs users. It is not
official Emacs developers' survey but the content is interesting and
this mailing list a relevant audience. So I think it's useful for you to
know:

    https://emacssurvey.org/

It is not _my_ survey so I can't answer your questions about it. See the
web page for info.

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 4E1055DC84E9DFF613D78557719D69D324539450

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Re: A survey for Emacs users

[Skip Montanaro]

>
> There is an open survey at the moment for Emacs users. It is not
> official Emacs developers' survey but the content is interesting and
> this mailing list a relevant audience.
>

Thanks for posting this, Teemu. I find it interesting/odd that the survey
author didn't directly post the survey here or mention this group in his
list of places to post. Is this not where the cool kids hang out anymore?
(Maybe it never was?) It seems to be the closest thing to an Emacs users
mailing list. Has r/emacs supplanted it?

Skip Montanaro

Re: A survey for Emacs users

[Jean Louis]

* Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> [2020-10-31 14:54]:
> >
> > There is an open survey at the moment for Emacs users. It is not
> > official Emacs developers' survey but the content is interesting and
> > this mailing list a relevant audience.
> >
> 
> Thanks for posting this, Teemu. I find it interesting/odd that the survey
> author didn't directly post the survey here or mention this group in his
> list of places to post. Is this not where the cool kids hang out anymore?
> (Maybe it never was?) It seems to be the closest thing to an Emacs users
> mailing list. Has r/emacs supplanted it?

Author did ask on Emacs Development mailing list for opinions. 

There are many people and people are individuals so there is freedom
for everybody to make any survey or associate with different groups
than the assumed group. There are many subsets of GNU/Linux users and
free software users including many people not knowing they use free
software. So it is.

There area also newsgroups on Emacs:
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNewsgroups

Back in time, it would be logical for me to first go to
newsgroups. Today this may not be, people may go to Stack Exchange for
Emacs or Reddit or similar. Times are changing and people's habits are
shaped by corporations.

One group of people discovers friendly help-gnu-emacs mailing
list. Other group may discuss in full anonimity on various forums
using bad language. Other groups will go stompedo against Emacs.

Is the list discoverable? I do not think so. It is well hidden from
Emacs users.

Install the package Hyperbole and you may see how they implement that
users find the mailing list, it is straight in the menu. If user needs
help, one can click in the menu and write email. Great. And that is
for package users.

Emacs has a good system and background welcoming that people send bug
reports including features, but it is not clear that bug report could
be for features as well.

It would be best to have under Help menu possibility to send emails
straight to help-gnu-emacs mailing list, not only for bugs.

Jean

Re: A survey for Emacs users

[Skip Montanaro]

Thanks, Jean Louis. I've been using GNU Emacs since probably the mid
to late 80s. I'm familiar with the couple mailing lists and the old
comp.emacs* newsgroups. r/emacs was completely new to me, and I'm not
a big fan of forums unless they are the only choice (they tend to be
closed gardens, for example).

A couple specific points:

> Is the list discoverable? I do not think so. It is well hidden from
> Emacs users.

This list? It's right there on the listinfo page of lists.gnu.org.
Unfortunately, its name separates it from the other Emacs-related
mailing lists. Seems a bit late for a name change at this point,
however.

> Install the package Hyperbole and you may see how they implement that
> users find the mailing list, it is straight in the menu. If user needs
> help, one can click in the menu and write email. Great. And that is
> for package users.

I installed Hyperbole and poked around a bit, but it escapes me how
"users find the mailing list." I see links to Hyperbole-related lists,
but nothing which would point a user to other Emacs resources. I must
be missing something.

Skip

Re: A survey for Emacs users

[Jean Louis]

* Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> [2020-10-31 17:31]:
> Thanks, Jean Louis. I've been using GNU Emacs since probably the mid
> to late 80s. I'm familiar with the couple mailing lists and the old
> comp.emacs* newsgroups. r/emacs was completely new to me, and I'm not
> a big fan of forums unless they are the only choice (they tend to be
> closed gardens, for example).

I do not prefer answering on Reddit as purpose of Reddit is different
than purpose of this mailing list. There is not even one official link
to GNU.ORG neither to official Emacs website under "Getting Started"
section.

There is no link to official GNU Emacs manual but there are links to
proprietary book Mastering Emacs and O'reilly book. Reddit is
advertising platform. There are no special set of principles.

It says that /r/emacs has 46000 users. Well how many of them are
really reporting bugs, do they know about it? I doubt somehow.

Additionally site is not usable with LibreJS or Javascript turned
off. 

> A couple specific points:
> 
> > Is the list discoverable? I do not think so. It is well hidden from
> > Emacs users.
> 
> This list? It's right there on the listinfo page of lists.gnu.org.
> Unfortunately, its name separates it from the other Emacs-related
> mailing lists. Seems a bit late for a name change at this point,
> however.

It is clear to me and you. I just gave you example above. Question is
rather how majority of people get Emacs? Do they get it like me
through "git pull" in days in a while? Or do they get it on their
system or on DVD as part of the OS.

Most probably it is part of the OS. How can such user discover
lists.gnu.org? It is unlikely. Feature should be in main stream Emacs
so that users can easily get into the list.

Then users who send emails will communicate quite differently than if
they are posting on /r/edit in anonymous mode.

> > Install the package Hyperbole and you may see how they implement that
> > users find the mailing list, it is straight in the menu. If user needs
> > help, one can click in the menu and write email. Great. And that is
> > for package users.
> 
> I installed Hyperbole and poked around a bit, but it escapes me how
> "users find the mailing list." I see links to Hyperbole-related lists,
> but nothing which would point a user to other Emacs resources. I must
> be missing something.

Hyperbole menu -> Mail list to Hyperbole users list

That is a model, sample, how Emacs could have it for users. In that
manner.

Re: A survey for Emacs users

[Skip Montanaro]

>
> Hyperbole menu -> Mail list to Hyperbole users list
>
> That is a model, sample, how Emacs could have it for users. In that
> manner.
>

Got it. I misinterpreted your message as suggesting Hyperbole provided
pointers to the Emacs list info.

Skip

>

RE: A survey for Emacs users

[Drew Adams]

> Emacs has a good system and background welcoming that people send bug
> reports including features, but it is not clear that bug report could
> be for features as well.
> 
> It would be best to have under Help menu possibility to send emails
> straight to help-gnu-emacs mailing list, not only for bugs.

Yes.  One of the discussions about beefing up the
Help menu to (1) make clear how to submit feature
(enhancement) suggestions and (2) give info about
or access to Emacs mailing lists, is here (this
URL points to one msg, about the Help menu):

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-10/msg00723.html

Re: A survey for Emacs users

[Corwin Brust]

Appreciate your mentioning here!

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 1:19 AM Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
>
> There is an open survey at the moment for Emacs users. It is not
> official Emacs developers' survey but the content is interesting and
> this mailing list a relevant audience. So I think it's useful for you to
> know:
>
>     https://emacssurvey.org/

The survey was discussed and then announced on the emacs-devel list;
I'll make sure someone has suggested future surveys should be
mentioned here also.

>
> It is not _my_ survey so I can't answer your questions about it. See the
> web page for info.

I'm not involved with this survey either (other than having completed
it); however, FWIW: I think this person will probably continue their
efforts until something else services users who don't engage with the
mailing lists.  That seems pretty reasonable to me, however small a
fraction of Emacs users that may be (or may eventually become) I
assume we should continue to be interested in why those remaining
don't raise their questions, etc., discuss here, on emacs-devel, etc.

>
> --
> /// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
> // OpenPGP: 4E1055DC84E9DFF613D78557719D69D324539450

Regards,
Corwin

Re: A survey for Emacs users

[Jean Louis]

* Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st> [2020-10-31 21:10]:
> I'm not involved with this survey either (other than having completed
> it); however, FWIW: I think this person will probably continue their
> efforts until something else services users who don't engage with the
> mailing lists.  That seems pretty reasonable to me, however small a
> fraction of Emacs users that may be (or may eventually become) I
> assume we should continue to be interested in why those remaining
> don't raise their questions, etc., discuss here, on emacs-devel, etc.

I think people simply don't know it despite the existing pointers to
it. It is in the manual, but how many actually read the manual? Survey
for example does not even make that question.

That there is pointer in the manual, myself I did not know. I use
manual in browsing mode myself. And discover always something new.

I think that number of people discovering to be able to send bug
report is about same number of people discovering mailing lists.

Let's face it, it is 2020. People are more passive today in computing
than 20 years ago.

We get more and more Emacs users but that is due to number of devices
being cheaper or more accessible. Users are many and interactions with
communities out there are growing. But not that they are discoverable
same as before. At some years number of websites go down. Maybe due to
social media influences. Who knows.

Reference: https://www.internetlivestats.com/total-number-of-websites/ 

Before 20 years it was quite common to find businesses having their
own domains and emails, they were competing to get it. Today many
businesses rely on free email providers. Personal websites
exponentially disappearing from Internet, at least from search
engines. Even definiton of Internet is slowly changing.

I don't get less fascinated and occupied by time, it is never
boring. Yet majority is doing something else. Population is guided by
corporations. "Do what others are doing." is pretty much the motto.

53 Contributing to Emacs Development
************************************

Emacs is a collaborative project and we encourage contributions from
anyone and everyone.

   There are many ways to contribute to Emacs:

   • find and report bugs; *Note Bugs::.

   • answer questions on the Emacs user mailing list
     <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs>.

   • write documentation, either on the wiki
     (https://www.emacswiki.org/), or in the Emacs source repository
     (*note Sending Patches::).

   • check if existing bug reports are fixed in newer versions of Emacs
     <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?which=pkg&data=emacs>.

Re: A survey for Emacs users

[Christopher Dimech]

The system is still too complex for many users.  I only got introduced to Gnu
because I met a guru who was using Gcc.  But that was about it.  People don't
realise how much there is to learn.  And many don't learn anything from educational
institutions that is as useful as our own work.  People learn informally, which
customarily leads on a rather torturous road.  It was for me anyway.

---------------------
Christopher Dimech
General Administrator - Naiad Informatics - GNU Project (Geocomputation)
- Geophysical Simulation
- Geological Subsurface Mapping
- Disaster Preparedness and Mitigation
- Natural Resource Exploration and Production
- Free Software Advocacy


> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 8:37 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "Corwin Brust" <corwin@bru.st>
> Cc: "Help Gnu Emacs mailing list" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: A survey for Emacs users
>
> * Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st> [2020-10-31 21:10]:
> > I'm not involved with this survey either (other than having completed
> > it); however, FWIW: I think this person will probably continue their
> > efforts until something else services users who don't engage with the
> > mailing lists.  That seems pretty reasonable to me, however small a
> > fraction of Emacs users that may be (or may eventually become) I
> > assume we should continue to be interested in why those remaining
> > don't raise their questions, etc., discuss here, on emacs-devel, etc.
> 
> I think people simply don't know it despite the existing pointers to
> it. It is in the manual, but how many actually read the manual? Survey
> for example does not even make that question.
> 
> That there is pointer in the manual, myself I did not know. I use
> manual in browsing mode myself. And discover always something new.
> 
> I think that number of people discovering to be able to send bug
> report is about same number of people discovering mailing lists.
> 
> Let's face it, it is 2020. People are more passive today in computing
> than 20 years ago.
> 
> We get more and more Emacs users but that is due to number of devices
> being cheaper or more accessible. Users are many and interactions with
> communities out there are growing. But not that they are discoverable
> same as before. At some years number of websites go down. Maybe due to
> social media influences. Who knows.
> 
> Reference: https://www.internetlivestats.com/total-number-of-websites/ 
> 
> Before 20 years it was quite common to find businesses having their
> own domains and emails, they were competing to get it. Today many
> businesses rely on free email providers. Personal websites
> exponentially disappearing from Internet, at least from search
> engines. Even definiton of Internet is slowly changing.
> 
> I don't get less fascinated and occupied by time, it is never
> boring. Yet majority is doing something else. Population is guided by
> corporations. "Do what others are doing." is pretty much the motto.
> 
> 53 Contributing to Emacs Development
> ************************************
> 
> Emacs is a collaborative project and we encourage contributions from
> anyone and everyone.
> 
>    There are many ways to contribute to Emacs:
> 
>    • find and report bugs; *Note Bugs::.
> 
>    • answer questions on the Emacs user mailing list
>      <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-gnu-emacs>.
> 
>    • write documentation, either on the wiki
>      (https://www.emacswiki.org/), or in the Emacs source repository
>      (*note Sending Patches::).
> 
>    • check if existing bug reports are fixed in newer versions of Emacs
>      <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?which=pkg&data=emacs>.
> 
> 
>

Learning new things

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2020-10-31 22:56]:
> The system is still too complex for many users.  I only got introduced to Gnu
> because I met a guru who was using Gcc.  But that was about it.  People don't
> realise how much there is to learn.  And many don't learn anything from educational
> institutions that is as useful as our own work.  People learn informally, which
> customarily leads on a rather torturous road.  It was for me anyway.

There is one interesting definiton from Jargon file:
http://catb.org/jargon/html/L/larval-stage.html

larval stage: n.

 Describes a period of monomaniacal concentration on coding apparently
 passed through by all fledgling hackers. Common symptoms include the
 perpetration of more than one 36-hour hacking run in a given week;
 neglect of all other activities including usual basics like food,
 sleep, and personal hygiene; and a chronic case of advanced
 bleary-eye. Can last from 6 months to 2 years, the apparent median
 being around 18 months. A few so afflicted never resume a more
 ‘normal’ life, but the ordeal seems to be necessary to produce really
 wizardly (as opposed to merely competent) programmers. See also
 wannabee. A less protracted and intense version of larval stage
 (typically lasting about a month) may recur when one is learning a
 new OS or programming language.