Re: Emacs as a word processor (ways to convert Word/RTF proprietary files)

[Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2020-12-25 11:15]:
> > Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 10:14:40 +0300
> > From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> > 
> > - there are Word importing capabilities by using other available free
> >   software. Emacs could advise users to install some external software
> >   to convert from Word.

> I think you underestimate the amount of pressure applied on any
> J.R. Hacker having a daytime job to use MS Office.  You cannot be a
> useful and appreciated part of an organization without having to use
> those tools, because all the correspondence and all the
> documentation is based on that.  And there's no real Free Software
> alternative, certainly not based on Emacs.

Since 21 years I use free software. Before that I used proprietary
Windows and various programs. Already back then I have found all the
free software to replace anything that I otherwise used on Windows. I
remember using LyX and writing books and HTML pages with it. That is
why I cannot share that opinion. I did find what I needed many years
ago, individually, so other users can also find it.

> The alternative solutions you suggest are extremely impractical.  They
> require people who know nothing about DOCX, DocBook, XML, ODT, and
> other formats to become proficient enough in these to figure out
> whether every feature of MS Office can be supported.  (Do _you_ know
> if everything is supported?)

Among priorities to have word processing or to have import/export with
Word format, than first would first to have word processing that users
may construct their pages in WYSIWYG fashion, and print it and get
nice results. As you mentioned enriched mode, and I am using it for
notes in the database, that could be good start (without knowing
technical background).

And I have not mentioned anything impractical. I was thinking it will
be natural to understand that such features of Abiword or antiword can
be used from Emacs functions. Recently we discussed using `curl' as
outside tool, it is not FSF copyrighted and we discuss it. I can think
that many other libraries are also used by Emacs that do not come from
FSF necessarily.

So you could bind/link or otherwise provide simple functions that
invoke Abiword on command line to provide import/export for various
documents. That is practical, not impractical. Otherwise as Abiword is
from Gnome project, you could include parts of it in Emacs. I really
did not look into those technicalities, the references I gave you are
for consideration and research.

Then visualize it:

Menu -> File -> Import -> Word Document, open up document in Dired and
run function with Abiword to convert it to format that Emacs will
understand.

Menu -> File -> Export -> Word Document, run function with Abiword to
convert the file Emacs is editing to be exported as Word document.

I hope you get better picture now.

> You further ask them to be able to create for themselves a bunch of
> scripts or programs to convert the Office files to something else,
> edit it in Emacs, then convert back without losing important
> features of the original document.

As the main target is GNU/Linux we need not ask people to keep any
compatibility with Word. Providing conversion functions as explained
above is enough.

Apropos asking, with Emacs we ask users ANYTHING POSSIBLE, including
to know Emacs Lisp and in comparison with outside software Emacs
configurations cannot be said to be user friendly. It is advanced text
editor and rather for advanced users.

Every user in Emacs and on mailing list is asked to create bunch of
scripts and programs to convert this and that, do this and that, just
look any mailing list and observe.

I am always supporting integration, it means connecting functions
together for users to have better accessible integrated environment.

> This is why it would be useful to have this kind of capabilities in
> Emacs: to enable users to visit MS Office documents with "C-x C-f",
> edit them in some specialized WYSIWYG Emacs mode, and finally save
> them with "C-x C-s".  If under the hood this runs some converters, it
> doesn't matter.

We both agree, you just went away from the yellow brick road. I just
pointed out that tools exist and they could be used to be integrated
in Emacs without reinventing the wheel. Just use available libraries
and programs. 

Also note that Libreoffice also has command line conversion.

	[--outdir output_dir] file...
		Batch  converts files.   If --outdir  is not  specified
		then  the  current working  directory  is  used as  the
		output directory  for the  converted files.  It implies
		--headless.

		Examples:

		--convert-to pdf *.doc

		Converts all .doc files to PDFs.

		--convert-to pdf:writer_pdf_Export  --outdir /home/user
		*.doc

		Converts all .doc  files to PDFs using  the settings in
		the  Writer  PDF  export  dialog  and  saving  them  in
		/home/user.

And that reference is NOT meant for users to make it manually but to
use it within Emacs to integrate it so that user can just open the
file and Emacs can convert it on the fly.

Customization options could say which converter to use:

- antiword
- abiword
- libreoffice
- openoffice
- etc.

> > - another good one is Abiword which has Word import/export
> >   capabilities on the command line. So a simple Emacs function of few
> >   lines could already use Abiword as external convertor and import file
> >   into Emacs word processing
> 
> So you are saying that, from the Free Software philosophy POV, it is
> not okay to have Emacs be able to access such files, but it _is_
> okay to use the likes of Abiword to do the same?

Yes, I do. I would say the same to Abiword would I be back in time
when they started with it. If option already exists, then I think that
focusing on handling or putting priority on Word files in Emacs is
total deviation from priorities.

> I don't think I see the logic in that.  If you are opposed to using
> MS Office file formats, you should refuse to look at them, in any
> form or shape, and instead request that the person who sends them
> produces them in some free format instead.  That would be a logical
> position which I can understand and respect.

I do refuse and never open such files. I send to people instructions
how to convert them and will not read it until they do, and they
do.