From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Rethinking the design of xwidgets Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 14:25:47 +0200 Message-ID: References: <864kmzupp0.fsf@akirakyle.com> <835z7e2ouj.fsf@gnu.org> <86v9fet5sg.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83imbe1040.fsf@gnu.org> <86pn5luak4.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83362g27y6.fsf@gnu.org> <124a89a6-353c-91f8-8a1a-d2a807db28e3@yandex.ru> <777a890b-cc3f-5338-4eea-129b66c29451@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18480"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-tangents@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, ak@akirakyle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 21 14:29:38 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kVDFK-0004gN-84 for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 14:29:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39294 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVDFJ-0003xU-2r for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:29:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43040) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVDBj-0002AX-T1 for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oln040092072030.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.72.30]:47489 helo=EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVDBg-0004Kd-OD; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:25:55 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=L0mQwyPBVTqEWGTPxs+qXlBLLwl+V9yeKq7ko2JJUVjb4xSefgxHwK/tT6t94m1at7DJQfQ/FON2uOGj8Jg9rfBztrFQUnNRWwkmq3AbAZXdb6K4xhJra0hi6XqsXqVkD37yg5dezaoxBulPW/avGHIk2FWvUg4hLVbKsHoEsC3PpQZ1dCQF8P7ib5Gu+iFTt84wvOY2vzupfJbLibb7s7U+90f7xzQsCpg+ARircwRxCmgdhn9YYiPDDfgewSdUkNN+QslaQtr4S9OhSS7GtNWRvOyDKCNEv9sIb+rlVLQjq+REZpFljRHcVBl5BHeAjPjsnyWGhEnV+y9eUbyVXg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=VxdVoXeDuxb7O3dFB/P4i86vypOvx1Puxa+ttmGlDfA=; b=P6WywmFZ22Es2zwMeALZMccAJP/yAeUwV1L2e67w8zAJiryy/Yh4EDQW/GtWco3431Xpj6k+3doBrQcOhlx0LiUneyFdC/qUhsPZ/LptzhRTesiNMUWNir/a6WXiZN8we1/S9lzK3DYupibCliw+497ESo4bEv25Z3X2DXQXPRi+FUBpgS0e4PdCcAy6bxhUe6ETCKUZ14WNJStOKor74v3Wf9n89DXmYMJWvy3ZdKoUn9Vqd5FEteoaO7QVvwSmHBTkbmnL9eo2xCwqkfF17IGnHs16E2RvQng5PsRCcVbxh2Zp9AKLeKmdpHmQhGt0YuvY2IwYwHr6nLfuWcrKRg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=VxdVoXeDuxb7O3dFB/P4i86vypOvx1Puxa+ttmGlDfA=; b=Hw/dK+uKa6Mfe3xNrVA8fmBJvnBnVsHdROKaj3HA9BjMMWuoylQP7G2OB6MJjr8qKflDXg0sCI1gKcEExiuk5o7g02wFk3CQOQGm5OMUjPfjqJZJWXUdv4RHkpYUVIVgTKKX4kzIL2nUfzqa80JC6OpE9PkzxoIoV2m5f2taneDpQaZM5zEAbPIgoI2tHkE2Eg+MHmkO4ijo+E2QhVq/ZXyuDyA1r/zzZgRTclNAxvJZIrG0w4RzZ/4y86TBJI+Y7ErrcvWI9nQnnsYm2+mFfsubd4DJrKRg+99QDhgYtACYv+0C+rMvlnqVTe7/JZrgW5fa7P53CChXlFbhZsCy/A== Original-Received: from DB5EUR03FT057.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0a::40) by DB5EUR03HT104.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0a::393) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3477.21; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:25:49 +0000 Original-Received: from VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0a::4f) by DB5EUR03FT057.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0a::235) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.18 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:25:49 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:574380C84A456E9931826E5791FF7C3C9EF4533B9F56FA8A558F3397A5DECA10; UpperCasedChecksum:77F19E86110F929028AD82A1CF8D50182B477D9C87EB3DCC1393F76588398EF0; SizeAsReceived:8501; Count:46 Original-Received: from VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::187b:196a:cb2d:adf1]) by VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::187b:196a:cb2d:adf1%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3477.028; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:25:49 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 21 Oct 2020 00:42:50 -0400") X-TMN: [UlCBgvkjDy9ytrSzN5XyiP6Mnc+JmgRL] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P191CA0099.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:8a::40) To VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:ac::17) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87blgvyddg.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (90.230.29.56) by AM6P191CA0099.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:8a::40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.18 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:25:47 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 8d6133b9-0194-4d15-84ba-08d875bc70f7 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB5EUR03HT104: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: rHlgokQwDJBcm045bRAcs+n2LxdEm8MCAc7h5bnlgyKkjy+tvd3fAphh+EDCFPm2mG1RAq85KACGzw3fglJAztHafyG2wxwgn1WSY5PPrPJsUn3PRcM7ZEYRGKLjdzBY8Nr85JzkYmX1AsYTK1KPd5DG6oXC7FrK4QJLtFofX1Aidz3/R/snmBg+Hfje2hcimWg/widr1aDQfWQuRiV/cg== X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: VDRmH/CslJum1kidCrKqLTy9J5kiHoH1tHrzE0+u1sXAaJWxPRxOgV5cKjRPlv2YjMXIAOCd0HWJ05xbkVHCVOXICzwALFm2Ec7qZDt6k6xBftDAitt66Ddfq8EEXhhKfTY5Ljr7QbrEkkI9BiJypQ== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8d6133b9-0194-4d15-84ba-08d875bc70f7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2020 12:25:48.9082 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB5EUR03FT057.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR03HT104 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.72.30; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/21 08:25:49 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:412 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > So I really don't know what is sustainability in refusing to use newer > > CPUs? > > I agree that is a problem. But we can't win by surrendering. I agree with you that surrender is not an option! And I admire your effort to eat "your own dog food"; I am not that disciplined as you are, my computer has nvidia card in it; rest is free. But we have to choose a fight wisely. Obviously, we can't win fight to convince the world not to buy latest CPUs (even AMD seems to have a version of this), nor the lastest GPUs. Nvidia even publicly apologized for not being able to produce many enough of their expensive 3080s. I can't even afford one, even if I wanted :D. > I am hoping that the various efforts to make newer, freer computers > will fix this before too late. Oh, you were to optimistic about people! Convinience and greed are mighty drivers, we should never under estimate those. :-) I don't know, I am half-joking about, but humans do tend to choose the path of lesser friction and worse evil. Probably are many more aware of the problem, but they simply choose between "lesser" evil: the power of new technology to solve the real-life problems, vs the problem of this techonology to control them. I think the problem is underestimated by many unfortuantely. Yuval Noah Harari has many correct ones about the technology and future. > However, could we please move this discussion off emacs-devel? > It's not on topic here. Of course, I appologize! I realized that you are completely correct just like few hours later. Sorry for not doing it earlier. Jean-Lous already moved it to tangents.