From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: arthur miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: A modern-mode? Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 22:11:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87v9ge3tet.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <83sgbh7py4.fsf@gnu.org> <874knxsqc6.fsf@gnus.org> <83imcd7mi9.fsf@gnu.org> , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1PR06MB45260F0FE8F15E14E9516FDE96210VI1PR06MB4526eurp_" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10281"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "self@gkayaalp.com" , "eliz@gnu.org" , "larsi@gnus.org" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: "Alfred M. 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Thread-Index: AQHWi25uPdzuuNHO5EO95M5T8Fc1lKlqufpegAAk5bCAAAKLOoAAMJ0AgAANKLiAADkqToAACjDBgAAIxyOAAAHwAoAADqSjgABZ3Z4= In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: sv-SE x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:175DE1AF7C1381B64820583855FDAD25856BC1011B870ADA31F4F29CE0BC8856; UpperCasedChecksum:3F20E3760E257857EF5F3BC18963007D18C5FCB0B2642915A8DF28D19B657CD7; SizeAsReceived:7289; Count:45 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [3ypXJT2QeeK9HdMzIqvRh3ixIxCPqKKw] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c7c504b1-16e5-4ed4-5ba3-08d85a8d7222 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VI1EUR05HT256: x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: /Xm+aACZ75EqYPzjIcjw5VOu4phg5Ock1VGYhwzbD+KWDbFPCNxoDCKWtTiX935NS1ZsNvPWrXRGn2uOI5LPOdiXtU8HCJBlF8rd5doC/4VeUKgm/ezk6KFzo5eg5+6jstxH23g4NoUEz+vwnN8Ubgi6/VHyHP/5Rkujat3JQLj4QOH5Jj91YewDuAt0OOo2+NsS2IDKZJU5r8TPkVK75A== x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 3b7cPaRQko3Erd4fMvJeKct2XkAfh23V/iYne3pqj3CDGoTmEcfRLWir8elkP8N3hA7wdnNF2Xzqy16uhCy0PHjZh3W/rDKA8Dxn9TLoowIK9gFnv/tPdLag9wC8OGECwqhYGv4SbNVmOz5B4C2bQg== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: VI1EUR05FT062.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c7c504b1-16e5-4ed4-5ba3-08d85a8d7222 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Sep 2020 22:11:22.4198 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1EUR05HT256 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.90.108; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/16 18:11:23 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255940 Archived-At: --_000_VI1PR06MB45260F0FE8F15E14E9516FDE96210VI1PR06MB4526eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You didn't created Emacs 20-mode when you switched from Emacs 19 to Emacs 2= 0. Why should you have new mode for new version? I don't think this entire discussion is about being modern, but about being= more like other software. As I have followed original Andrea's proposal, here is what I think: Make a list of external packages that are legally and technically acceptabl= e for inclusion in Emacs (for example which-key) Include those and enable them as default, not as a mode. Old users are expe= rienced enough to setq a variable or two, or change it via customize, new = users are not. Rarionale: you already have such features (me nus, tool ars, scrollbars etc= ) that experienced users usually turn off. Same is with which-key and other= new packages you choose to include. Keyboard interaction is another subject in this "modern" discussion. 3d mod= ellers/animation packages usually come with key-bindings that resemble comp= etitions package. That to make eventual transition easy. I have no idea if = it is fully possible in Emacs, but Emacs already have Vi emulation. Maybe t= here could be VisualStudio too (or whatever is interesting)? Remapping C-x = & co is probably not directly trivial. Looks: Emacs has themes, and there are quality themes out there. A not so t= rivial part is 3rd party packages which has to be skinned "manually", some= thing seems to be missing, so complete theming framework so 3rd party packa= ges can also get blended into looks automatically (a thread about color sch= eming is about that). -------- Originalmeddelande -------- Fr=E5n: "Alfred M. Szmidt" Datum: 2020-09-16 18:49 (GMT+01:00) Till: Andrea Corallo Kopia: self@gkayaalp.com, eliz@gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org =C4mne: Re: A modern-mode? >> > Yes, let's find a different name for this. I'd object to calling i= t >> > "modern", because I disagree that vanilla Emacs isn't. >> >> I think "modern" implies that one day it won't be modern any more, so >> it's a fine name by me. But perhaps it should be more specific: >> `modern-2020-mode'. > > I'm okay with that if we drop the "modern" part. How about > emacs-2021-mode? I like this one too :) But would still be possible to have it enabled with a command line option? I mean if every new release we have a new version of this mode (theme?) either we loose this ability or we have the command line option binded to the most recent one. Why not some clickable link on the splash screen, or a toggle from the menu-bar? The only option that might make sense is an option to select a theme from the command line. --_000_VI1PR06MB45260F0FE8F15E14E9516FDE96210VI1PR06MB4526eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You didn't created Emacs 20-mode when you switched from E= macs 19 to Emacs 20. Why should you have new mode for new version?

I don't think this entire discussion is about being moder= n, but about being more like other software. 

As I have followed original Andrea's proposal, here is wh= at I think:

Make a list of external packages that are legally and tec= hnically acceptable for inclusion in Emacs (for example which-key)

Include those and enable them as default, not as a mode. = Old users are experienced enough to setq a variable or two, or change it&nb= sp; via customize, new users are not. 

Rarionale: you already have such features (me nus, tool a= rs, scrollbars etc) that experienced users usually turn off. Same is with w= hich-key and other  new packages you choose to include. 

Keyboard interaction is another subject in this "mod= ern" discussion. 3d modellers/animation packages usually come with key= -bindings that resemble competitions package. That to make eventual transit= ion easy. I have no idea if it is fully possible in Emacs, but Emacs already have Vi emulation. Maybe there could be Visual= Studio too (or whatever is interesting)? Remapping C-x & co is probably= not directly trivial.

Looks: Emacs has themes, and there are quality themes out= there. A not so trivial part is 3rd party packages which has to be skinned= "manually",  something seems to be missing, so complete the= ming framework so 3rd party packages can also get blended into looks automatically (a thread about color scheming is about t= hat).


-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=E5n: "Alfred M. Szmidt" <ams@gnu.org>
Datum: 2020-09-16 18:49 (GMT+01:00)
Till: Andrea Corallo <akrl@sdf.org>
Kopia: self@gkayaalp.com, eliz@gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gn= u.org
=C4mne: Re: A modern-mode?

   >> > Yes, let's find a diffe= rent name for this.  I'd object to calling it
   >> > "modern", because I disagree that vani= lla Emacs isn't.
   >>
   >> I think "modern" implies that one day it wo= n't be modern any more, so
   >> it's a fine name by me.  But perhaps it should b= e more specific:
   >> `modern-2020-mode'.
   >
   > I'm okay with that if we drop the "modern" part= .  How about
   > emacs-2021-mode?

   I like this one too :) But would still be possible to have it = enabled
   with a command line option?  I mean if every new release = we have a new
   version of this mode (theme?) either we loose this ability or = we have
   the command line option binded to the most recent one.

Why not some clickable link on the splash screen, or a toggle from the
menu-bar?

The only option that might make sense is an option to select a theme
from the command line.

 --_000_VI1PR06MB45260F0FE8F15E14E9516FDE96210VI1PR06MB4526eurp_--