From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tom DL Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#70392: 29.3; null info page is unclear Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 07:28:59 +0000 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1P194MB2166F15F2124CB6BEDC35E5CEE092VI1P194MB2166EURP_" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35913"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: 70392@debbugs.gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 15 10:02:22 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rwHID-000911-Ig for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 10:02:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rwHHu-00007y-TT; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --text follows this line-- In GNU Emacs 29.3 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.41, cairo version 1.18.0) Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101010 System Description: EndeavourOS Configured using: 'configure --with-x-toolkit=3Dgtk3 --with-native-compilation=3Daot --sysconfdir=3D/etc --prefix=3D/usr --libexecdir=3D/usr/lib --with-tree-sitter --localstatedir=3D/var --with-cairo --disable-build-details --with-harfbuzz --with-libsystemd --with-modules 'CFLAGS=3D-march=3Dx86-64 -mtune=3Dgeneric -O2 -pipe -fno-p= lt -fexceptions -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D2 -Wformat -Werror=3Dformat-security -fstack-clash-protection -fcf-protection -g -ffile-prefix-map=3D/build/emacs/src=3D/usr/src/debug/emacs -flto=3Dauto' 'LDFLAGS=3D-Wl,-O1 -Wl,--sort-common -Wl,--as-needed -Wl,-z,relro -Wl,-z,now -Wl,-z,pack-relative-relocs -flto=3Dauto' 'CXXFLAGS=3D-march=3Dx86-64 -mtune=3Dgeneric -O2 -pipe -fno-plt -fexceptio= ns -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D2 -Wformat -Werror=3Dformat-security -fstack-clash-protection -fcf-protection -Wp,-D_GLIBCXX_ASSERTIONS -g -ffile-prefix-map=3D/build/emacs/src=3D/usr/src/debug/emacs -flto=3Dauto'' Configured features: ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP X11 XDBE XIM XINPUT2 XPM GTK3 ZLIB Important settings: value of $LC_MONETARY: es_ES.UTF-8 value of $LC_NUMERIC: es_ES.UTF-8 value of $LC_TIME: es_ES.UTF-8 value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: Lisp Interaction Minor modes in effect: tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t eldoc-mode: t show-paren-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t line-number-mode: t indent-tabs-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message mailcap yank-media puny dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec password-cache epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config gnus-util text-property-search time-date mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader cl-loaddefs comp comp-cstr warnings icons subr-x rx cl-seq cl-macs gv cl-extra help-mode bytecomp byte-compile cl-lib sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils rmc iso-transl tooltip cconv eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer nadvice seq simple cl-generic indonesian philippine cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure cl-preloaded button loaddefs theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget keymap hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting cairo move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty make-network-process native-compile emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 77244 5722) (symbols 48 7141 0) (strings 32 19706 2242) (string-bytes 1 597786) (vectors 16 15776) (vector-slots 8 329999 11158) (floats 8 27 46) (intervals 56 262 0) (buffers 984 11)) The info page "Predicates on Lists" has a section on `null` which is confusing. It says: =85as a matter of clarity we use null when object is considered a list and not when it is considered a truth value=85 But my understanding is that we also use null when object is considered a non-boolean value. E.g. if `foo` could be `red` `green` or `nil` then `foo` is neither a list nor a truth value. The info page made me think I should use `not` rather than `null`, but upon further research, it looks like `null` is fine for checking for `nil` when `nil` isn't used to represent falsity. I would suggested rewording the info page to read as so: =85as a matter of clarity we use null when object is considered a list or other non-boolean value. We use not when object is considered a boolean value=85 It may also be helpful to change the section on `not` in "Constructs for Combining Conditions": =85we recommend using the name null if you are testing for an empty list or other non-boolean nil. Thanks for your consideration. Tom Dalziel --_000_VI1P194MB2166F15F2124CB6BEDC35E5CEE092VI1P194MB2166EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
--text follows this line--
In GNU Emacs 29.3 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.41,
cairo version 1.18.0)
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101010<= /div>
System Description: EndeavourOS

Configured using:
 'configure --with-x-toolkit=3Dgtk3 --with-native-compilation=3Daot
 --sysconfdir=3D/etc --prefix=3D/usr --libexecdir=3D/usr/lib
 --with-tree-sitter --localstatedir=3D/var --with-cairo
 --disable-build-details --with-harfbuzz --with-libsystemd
 --with-modules 'CFLAGS=3D-march=3Dx86-64 -mtune=3Dgeneric -O2 -pipe -= fno-plt
 -fexceptions -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D2 -Wformat -Werror=3Dformat-secu= rity
 -fstack-clash-protection -fcf-protection -g
 -ffile-prefix-map=3D/build/emacs/src=3D/usr/src/debug/emacs -flto=3Da= uto'
 'LDFLAGS=3D-Wl,-O1 -Wl,--sort-common -Wl,--as-needed -Wl,-z,relro
 -Wl,-z,now -Wl,-z,pack-relative-relocs -flto=3Dauto'
 'CXXFLAGS=3D-march=3Dx86-64 -mtune=3Dgeneric -O2 -pipe -fno-plt -fexc= eptions
 -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D2 -Wformat -Werror=3Dformat-security
 -fstack-clash-protection -fcf-protection -Wp,-D_GLIBCXX_ASSERTIONS -g=
 -ffile-prefix-map=3D/build/emacs/src=3D/usr/src/debug/emacs -flto=3Da= uto''

Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG
JSON LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY
INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP X11 XDBE XIM XINPUT2 XPM GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LC_MONETARY: es_ES.UTF-8
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: es_ES.UTF-8
  value of $LC_TIME: es_ES.UTF-8
  value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message mailcap yank-media puny dired
dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec password-cache epa derived epg rfc6068
epg-config gnus-util text-property-search time-date mm-decode mm-bodies
mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader cl-loaddefs
comp comp-cstr warnings icons subr-x rx cl-seq cl-macs gv cl-extra
help-mode bytecomp byte-compile cl-lib sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045
ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils rmc iso-transl tooltip cconv
eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type
elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd
fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment
text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow
isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax
font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer nadvice seq simple cl-generic
indonesian philippine cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese
tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek
romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese
composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure cl-preloaded button loaddefs
theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties
overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget keymap
hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify lcms2
dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting cairo
move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty make-network-process
native-compile emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 77244 5722)
 (symbols 48 7141 0)
 (strings 32 19706 2242)
 (string-bytes 1 597786)
 (vectors 16 15776)
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The info page "Predicates on Lists" has a section on `null` which= is
confusing. It says:

=85as a matter of clarity we use null when object is considered a list and<= /div>
not when it is considered a truth value=85

But my understanding is that we also use null when object is considered
a non-boolean value. E.g. if `foo` could be `red` `green` or `nil` then
`foo` is neither a list nor a truth value. The info page made me think I
should use `not` rather than `null`, but upon further research, it looks
like `null` is fine for checking for `nil` when `nil` isn't used to
represent falsity.

I would suggested rewording the info page to read as so:

=85as a matter of clarity we use null when object is considered a list or
other non-boolean value. We use not when object is considered a boolean
value=85

It may also be helpful to change the section on `not` in "Constructs f= or
Combining Conditions":

=85we recommend using the name null if you are testing for an empty list
or other non-boolean nil.

Thanks for your consideration.

Tom Dalziel
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