From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: arthur miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: list of elisp primitives ? 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:243665 Archived-At: --_000_VI1P194MB04292418C75CBC353B29ECE8962B0VI1P194MB0429EURP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think you are thinking from the wrong end. As a consult I had opportunity= to work with all kind of languages I never thought I would work with and o= f which I had no idea what APIs where available or what was idiomatic codin= g. Anyway my approach was always to think in general programming terms of repe= tition, conditional, aggregations etc. I would then lookup what I needed to= find out details of syntax and exposed libraries. I believe programming, and any programming language is best learned by doin= g. Especially when you already know how machine works and have knowledge of= algorithms, data structures and program organization. If you have seen thevlegendaru K&R C book, then that is a bitwhat I mean. I= don't think picking up some small subset of API and giving it to people an= d telling them to make something with it is the necessary the best approach= . Probably to show them basics on small exercises and teach them how to loo= kup information they need further. Yes it takes time to lookup stuff, but t= hat is the nature of the thing. If we make an analogy with Lego bricks, then yes one can see library functi= ons as bricks to be combined, but just as Lego bricks, and everything else = in life, one has to know what one wants to make before one starts to build = it, otherwise it will just be random mess. Skickat fr=E5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. -------- Originalmeddelande -------- Fr=E5n: Jean-Christophe Helary Datum: 2019-12-26 18:39 (GMT+01:00) Till: Emacs developers =C4mne: Re: list of elisp primitives ? > On Dec 23, 2019, at 2:31, Drew Adams wrote: > >> I'm trying ... to find a limited subset of >> functions that one can use to program in elisp > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> and do non-trivial things but that do not > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> involve searching the reference at all times. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > That's not what a list of subrs gives you, at all. > A subr is just a function coded in C, not in Lisp. > Likewise, for other things, such as variables, > that might be defined in C. > > The choice of whether to implement something in C > has nothing to do with, and is no guide for, ease > in learning or how often something is used in > typical Elisp code. I'm not suggesting that implementing lisp functions in C is related to ease= of learning or anything. My idea, which may be wrong, is that lisp code uses building blocks to prov= ide more advanced functions and that the most basic blocks are lisp functio= ns implemented in C. Hence, knowing the building blocks (or a few dozen useful ones) can give a = clearer idea of what to do with elisp in general. Mind you, I too am trying to find my way around and it's not easy. My pet p= eeve is "discoverability" and for now despite the info/doc integration, I'm= still very much struggling. Jean-Christophe Helary ----------------------------------------------- http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune --_000_VI1P194MB04292418C75CBC353B29ECE8962B0VI1P194MB0429EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think you are thinking from the wrong end. As a consult= I had opportunity to work with all kind of languages I never thought I wou= ld work with and of which I had no idea what APIs where available or what w= as idiomatic coding.

Anyway my approach was always to think in general program= ming terms of repetition, conditional, aggregations etc. I would then looku= p what I needed to find out details of syntax and exposed libraries. <= /div>

I believe programming, and any programming language is be= st learned by doing. Especially when you already know how machine works and= have knowledge of algorithms, data structures and program organization.&nb= sp;

If you have seen thevlegendaru K&R C book, then that = is a bitwhat I mean. I don't think picking up some small subset of API and = giving it to people and telling them to make something with it is the neces= sary the best approach. Probably to show them basics on small exercises and teach them how to lookup information th= ey need further. Yes it takes time to lookup stuff, but that is the nature = of the thing.

If we make an analogy with Lego bricks, then yes one can = see library functions as bricks to be combined, but just as Lego bricks, an= d everything else in life, one has to know what one wants to make before on= e starts to build it, otherwise it will just be random mess.



Skickat fr=E5n min= Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.



-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=E5n: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-l= ibre.org>
Datum: 2019-12-26 18:39 (GMT+01:00)
Till: Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
=C4mne: Re: list of elisp primitives ?



> On Dec 23, 2019, at 2:31, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wro= te:
>
>> I'm trying ... to find a limited subset of
>> functions that one can use to program in elisp
>            = ;            &n= bsp;       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> and do non-trivial things but that do not
>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> involve searching the reference at all times.
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^= ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> That's not what a list of subrs gives you, at all.
> A subr is just a function coded in C, not in Lisp.
> Likewise, for other things, such as variables,
> that might be defined in C.
>
> The choice of whether to implement something in C
> has nothing to do with, and is no guide for, ease
> in learning or how often something is used in
> typical Elisp code.

I'm not suggesting that implementing lisp functions in C is related to ease= of learning or anything.

My idea, which may be wrong, is that lisp code uses building blocks to prov= ide more advanced functions and that the most basic blocks are lisp functio= ns implemented in C.

Hence, knowing the building blocks (or a few dozen useful ones) can give a = clearer idea of what to do with elisp in general.

Mind you, I too am trying to find my way around and it's not easy. My pet p= eeve is "discoverability" and for now despite the info/doc integr= ation, I'm still very much struggling.


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blog= spot.com @brandelune



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