From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: arthur miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: On elisp running native Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:17:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <838smzq9iz.fsf@gnu.org> <8336d6rfgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgl6p1xa.fsf@gnu.org> <8650c93f-89cb-7e51-c8e6-dadf713a3e2d@yandex.ru>, Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1P194MB04291D415A9AE76B615E057696270VI1P194MB0429EURP_" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="133448"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Andrea Corallo , EMACS development team To: chad , Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 30 09:18:07 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ilqFa-000YYn-Jc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:243760 Archived-At: --_000_VI1P194MB04291D415A9AE76B615E057696270VI1P194MB0429EURP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't yet installed WSL, nor do I have any plans. I don't see why shoul= d I install entire Linux kernel if I can run applications natively. I don't= understand why people are so excited about wsl when they could just run Li= nux kernel on bare metal? I do it 99% of time myself and I don't miss Windo= ws at slightest. Mingw and/or Cygwin do just fine for the apps that does not have native win= ports already, but most worth-have apps are already written in portable wa= y. Running entire wm and another kernel just to run an app is an overkill o= n resources in my eyes. I would like to see a world where we go towards using less resources instea= d of just piling platform over platform eating all CPU and ram achievements= just because it's easy way out. I think it's madness to run a chat app tha= t requires 1.5 gig or dependency (slack on blink), or as someone on YT rec= ommends to run a virtual machine on Windows with GNU/Linux distro for the s= ole purpose of running Emacs. WSL is towards that trend. Of course if Emacs= run on WSL, and of course it will, is not a problem, but if Emacs does no= t have native port, that will be a problem. So I write this just to express that some people value native win32 port an= d hope native win32 port will not go away or get behind just because it is = *easier* to run Emacs on wsl pile of ... Skickat fr=E5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. -------- Originalmeddelande -------- Fr=E5n: chad Datum: 2019-12-29 21:00 (GMT+01:00) Till: Dmitry Gutov Kopia: Eli Zaretskii , EMACS development team , Andrea Corallo =C4mne: Re: On elisp running native On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 5:07 AM Dmitry Gutov > wrote: Considering WSL is getting more popular and sees some solid development these days, what are the odds that this is going to be our sole target on Windows, some years since? Microsoft is moving the WSL 'platform' away from translating POSIX calls in= to Windows-native (W32, Win32, I forget the details), and instead implement= ing a system where the Linux kernel runs in a custom VM (actually, inside a= container running inside a VM, if I understand it correctly). The system t= hen provides the necessary software to bridge the two systems from the user= POV. The architecture is supposedly very close to what Google (the softwar= e part, not the Advertising company part) is doing with ChromeOS and their = Crostini project, where the user's choice of distribution runs (kernel and = all) alongside the Linux kernel that underlies ChromeOS, and software insid= e each separate OS is used to bridge (for example) X11 into the Wayland-bas= ed display engine, share files between the two, etc. Supposedly, this was t= he way they found to solve the performance problems with the impedance mism= atch between Windows and Linux design issues (especially filesystem operati= ons). If this works, then it'll make Windows support easier, since it will be ver= y close to GNU/Linux support. Hope that helps, ~Chad --_000_VI1P194MB04291D415A9AE76B615E057696270VI1P194MB0429EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I haven't yet installed WSL, nor do I have any plans. I d= on't see why should I install entire Linux kernel if I can run applications= natively. I don't understand why people are so excited about wsl when they= could just run Linux kernel on bare metal? I do it 99% of time myself and I don't miss Windows at slightest.

Mingw and/or Cygwin do just fine for the apps that does n= ot have native win ports already, but most worth-have apps are already writ= ten in portable way. Running entire wm and another kernel just to run an ap= p is an overkill on resources in my eyes. 

I would like to see a world where we go towards using les= s resources instead of just piling platform over platform eating all CPU an= d ram achievements just because it's easy way out. I think it's madness to = run a chat app that requires 1.5 gig or dependency  (slack on blink), or as someone on YT recommends to ru= n a virtual machine on Windows with GNU/Linux distro for the sole purpose o= f running Emacs. WSL is towards that trend. Of course if Emacs run on WSL, = and of course it will,  is not a problem, but if Emacs does not have native port, that will be a problem. 

So I write this just to express that some people value na= tive win32 port and hope native win32 port will not go away or get behind j= ust because it is *easier* to run Emacs on wsl pile of ...

Skickat fr=E5n min= Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.



-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=E5n: chad <yandros@gmail.com>
Datum: 2019-12-29 21:00 (GMT+01:00)
Till: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
Kopia: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, EMACS development team <= emacs-devel@gnu.org>, Andrea Corallo <akrl@sdf.org>
=C4mne: Re: On elisp running native


On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 5:07 AM Dmitr= y Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wr= ote:
Considering WSL is getting more popular and sees some solid development these days, what are the odds that this is going to be our sole target
on Windows, some years since?

Microsoft is moving the WSL 'platform' away from translating POSIX calls in= to Windows-native (W32, Win32, I forget the details), and instead implement= ing a system where the Linux kernel runs in a custom VM (actually, inside a= container running inside a VM, if I understand it correctly). The system then provides the necessary soft= ware to bridge the two systems from the user POV. The architecture is suppo= sedly very close to what Google (the software part, not the Advertising com= pany part) is doing with ChromeOS and their Crostini project, where the user's choice of distribution runs (= kernel and all) alongside the Linux kernel that underlies ChromeOS, and sof= tware inside each separate OS is used to bridge (for example) X11 into the = Wayland-based display engine, share files between the two, etc. Supposedly, this was the way they found to sol= ve the performance problems with the impedance mismatch between Windows and= Linux design issues (especially filesystem operations). 

If this works, then it'll make Windows support easier, since it will b= e very close to GNU/Linux support.

Hope that helps,
~Chad
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