From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#64046: 30.0.50; Quoting in customize choice tags Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 16:17:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8ca48b5a-1619-8da8-ae3a-6ae96351a19d@gmail.com> <87v8eelh2s.fsf@gmx.net> <87r0p2l5pp.fsf@gmx.net> <27a78233-5758-c03e-e3a2-342d194d1448@gmail.com> <87fs48ppr8.fsf@gmx.net> <87bkewpogr.fsf@gmx.net> <87h6oo2may.fsf@gmx.net> <65eb4677-5ae3-5170-1b37-2e02f974c972@gmail.com> <871qfqiygn.fsf@gmx.net> <87r0nnmg31.fsf@gmx.net> <48373026-79e2-a9cb-73a8-1834360aeb4e@gmail.com> <874jkgebnc.fsf@gmx.net> <2a93abfe-722c-7541-b594-3a75c916a7f1@gmail.com> <87wmxccfel.fsf@gmx.net> <1886f854-101b-00ef-f619-28ac99082eb5@gmail.com> <835y4vg44p.fsf@gnu.org> <838r9qcsfx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19967"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "maurooaranda@gmail.com" , "ola.x.nilsson@axis.com" , "stephen.berman@gmx.net" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" , "64046@debbugs.gnu.org" <64046@debbugs.gnu.org> To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 01 18:19:13 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6rY-0004um-Ms for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 18:19:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6rH-0004Lw-EK; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:18:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6rF-0004LR-4X for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:18:53 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6rE-0005V0-Sk for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:18:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6rO-0007PG-3F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:19:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 16:19:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64046 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 64046-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B64046.169358509828419 (code B ref 64046); Fri, 01 Sep 2023 16:19:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 64046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2023 16:18:18 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33745 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6qf-0007OJ-So for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:18:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:50924) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6qc-0007O9-Ub for 64046@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 12:18:16 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (m0246629.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 381CAKLe027003; Fri, 1 Sep 2023 16:18:02 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2023-03-30; bh=zZ94gsYS5z4zDQy0seC2hdi8KsotbwsPsJVBwfOZ9OA=; b=O1DRH0cwo5QjfpHF8ftiMqbXPvzxtyZZeUEa2UMhED7hTQ32C2fNvR8tU+cJy5VISaGo 4svhL3jXKHjHQCBKbrw14V0nTY5+RkGq+uNAiwjCo6lIQoqSbOgx5ybeg8ArXwQRXHcS YIjQljSSuiqWGyaz7UGvEKVgSIMhTwjqD+nR3whG8YcQrEfRgOHfvLp0NwA/2748AZIE jLQHq7837J016+gqcNfIwI+yYdRwG8j9qjlOflLL6bYpfepX61+bYm9uVTeW7IeZ5kw1 T3t3SZi/y/Ch1iRv41N1FxNGAf2IpR56/dHYjAqlDlkanz9ClqqK864UjSTgz7kRWX1D KQ== Original-Received: from phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (phxpaimrmta01.appoci.oracle.com [138.1.114.2]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3sq9mcvb0n-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 01 Sep 2023 16:18:01 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com [127.0.0.1]) by phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 381EUWdI014306; Fri, 1 Sep 2023 16:18:00 GMT Original-Received: from nam12-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12lp2042.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.66.42]) by phxpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3sr6hshej6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 01 Sep 2023 16:18:00 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=X80O1p98g2D9+ltJx8VeiRb/0pyPntVGZMcyFfquQSn0WRfK8Y23Na93tQyhb5yhdRbQ1yjuT6boWnb79RBWeONJ3vVfqemvUojO2LGbU4jj//mLQhzFAMuYMG3FUx0KVfqaQwqjGP6vXLY04PN7UlILJcTceRNdLVmb+yUnRimDdK7JT5wcMXEZHRfOlzID4WD1PFW4Uo0V2RwtgKI2asJp239DmuVqr5HcTiMY2R+SMdx2fktPUiTTZf4x2T+3wfkChAwnPzICPXj3jTy2TO7Xi9HR6hZr5pGP5T6cQSZt5HIOYpTuQ55jaI/fkIqj468ygoAvNShdm/mCZtbpsw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=zZ94gsYS5z4zDQy0seC2hdi8KsotbwsPsJVBwfOZ9OA=; b=PTbWojls57MvzGm2ithjDtRsQOYsMxJ3LdL3CEWyKnNU1RjPeA6aPeThAu1wHyWUvEGnVRFLSJWfrbtCn2dFDnN3ptWfRnFuudvBGZSZlObPVio/3aeJG9jnuvuYFClcDVNvyw0dsW5PIZ8DvXeapTHRX74yneprDxgUagfWbM+HIv+U3pZbnRYdN0EYvnP5HtuTpEDh+411Vjc56gAfHnyh8MzpOJKlqnq1KwXc0BX17qnzqevYCvrvIh/Qh4A0atT03iwehwc8qzq6GmCcRzmWp7eRtf7uhPK44qnBB+/HYSMg9uN2Y0z8hfuCFptomREZhf21oZg0URRPbag2bw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=zZ94gsYS5z4zDQy0seC2hdi8KsotbwsPsJVBwfOZ9OA=; b=F83SfOiPHXjtuZOIOI+2gc7tBGfG6ilNVeQ/YvLjnKurT79ZHBGYzI1wdV1yQwCHQ7+viQJ9qtNMXReLbLu6GpfhFJ47oM/qSRD9ECChms9BAaX2O+oM6Lw3mYGA/8F9zvljsm4oQOJZ6XegAhg4q1bl9TA9A9sfmQklNcVxUAs= Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by IA0PR10MB7665.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:484::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6745.22; Fri, 1 Sep 2023 16:17:58 +0000 Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7c3b:c5a0:5222:69a4]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7c3b:c5a0:5222:69a4%6]) with mapi id 15.20.6745.021; Fri, 1 Sep 2023 16:17:58 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#64046: 30.0.50; Quoting in customize choice tags Thread-Index: AQHZ3J52MIhR5tuBL0+CCj5H19z0JbAGBTKA In-Reply-To: <838r9qcsfx.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|IA0PR10MB7665:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6e28c8fa-7997-43ac-572d-08dbab070186 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230031)(346002)(39860400002)(396003)(136003)(376002)(366004)(1800799009)(186009)(451199024)(71200400001)(66899024)(44832011)(26005)(55016003)(5660300002)(52536014)(6916009)(316002)(86362001)(83380400001)(122000001)(66556008)(54906003)(66946007)(76116006)(66476007)(38100700002)(38070700005)(64756008)(66446008)(2906002)(9686003)(41300700001)(478600001)(66574015)(8936002)(8676002)(4326008)(7696005)(6506007)(33656002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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 lYaHYjVNTvpQH/kYb2LkbxXT33EgNanM+qw4RLk97dZOvSaDvYz8atnwKtzwqt8PZkc0VitMkIBNTEDmmT9ANgUIrM5RU5U/F8 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 bOKfeP6X8XhIcCyt0Z7ARStZ1hK3GTVnPSFHZrMOP9AKBLe6tzMU91e5ESWk/dAJj+YEinoiSc6EQ9398gOJZXFx9iaf1KCnSm X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6e28c8fa-7997-43ac-572d-08dbab070186 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Sep 2023 16:17:58.1264 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: nGmx56dS28bN2aDHb/MrLKbugQTg17txF8XMPVTqgFG2pH/6Jd3dZi7eL3kYFvDJw1NKF2tW4tJ3yzJ2eoMfbg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: IA0PR10MB7665 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.267,Aquarius:18.0.957,Hydra:6.0.601,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-09-01_13,2023-08-31_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2309010152 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 7_b1ZNu4kwNFeEVBd5IVLAOuwAEAnGsB X-Proofpoint-GUID: 7_b1ZNu4kwNFeEVBd5IVLAOuwAEAnGsB X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:268892 Archived-At: > > > The reality is that we have decided to use curly quotes in Emacs, in > > > places where it is typographically correct. That decision was made > > > before I was very active in the project, BTW. So either we reverse > > > that decision, or we try to be consistent about it. My position is > > > that the latter is preferable. > > > > How does (a) a decision (however debatable its > > merits) to convert ` and ' that surround key > > descriptions, function names, variable names, > > etc. in doc/help to curly quotes apply to, or > > even relate to, (b) deciding to convert ` and ' > > to curly quotes in TITLE for the currently > > considered context? >=20 > These conversions are broader in scope than you assume: > they affect _any_ quoting, not just quoting of symbols. I didn't refer to symbols. I mentioned the things for which quoting with `...' gets converted to quoting with curly quotes in doc and help contexts (including msgs). I gave examples of such text, which isn't just symbol names. "These conversations"? This bug thread is specific to "Quoting in customize choice tags". And my little part of it is much more specific than that. I've spoken only about TITLE, which AFAIK can contain ANY text - text in which `...' has no necessary meaning or correspondence to the contexts (Info, Help) where curly conversion was adopted - for sexps, file names, etc. I didn't say a thing about other places referred to in this thread where `...' would be converted to curly quotes - let alone other places outside this thread. Am I mistaken that TITLE can be anything at all, and doesn't correspond to the kinds of context where we've (you've) adopted curly conversion of `...'? If so, please let me know how - what's the expectation for the text in TITLE? > > Has anyone spoken to that? Has anyone given > > any reason, let alone good reasons, for doing > > that? I haven't seen any reasons presented, > > and I've asked you about it several times now. >=20 > The reasons were given many times. You just disagree with them, so > you post counter-arguments, and then behave like the reasons don't > exist because you posted counter-arguments. You have a habit of saying that, instead of pointing to any reasons. I haven't seen any. No one has cited any. Just saying, as you often do, that many reasons have been given doesn't make it so, as experience has shown. And please contain your "reasons given many times" to the content of this thread. It's not about whatever reasons might have been given years ago in some discussion about the use of `...' in doc and help. I do not "behave like the reasons don't exist". I've asked to be pointed to them - even one. And your repeated refrain of there-are-lots-but-Drew-pretends-otherwise rings hollow. You're the one harping on the general (and settled) question of treatment of `...', not I. It's you who enjoys bringing that up. And you have a bad habit of jumping into ad hominem argument. Please stop that. It's not because it's Drew who raises a question that it should be dismissed. Why change `...' in TITLE to curly quotes? > > Can you cite some reasons? >=20 > What for? We had these discussions many times, with the same > arguments and the same outcomes. We should stop reiterating them and > wasting everyone's time and energy, let alone bandwidth. The only question I spoke to in this thread was about TITLE. This isn't about some general discussion about converting `...' to curly quotes. It's you, not I, who have tried to replace a specific question about TITLE with a discussion about converting `...' to curly quotes in general. It's you who's trying to initiate here-we-go-again, by painting this as being about a more general topic. I specifically did not say a word about conversion of `...' to curly quotes in the rest of this thread (where it was brought up many times). Search the thread for "substitu", if you don't believe me. Such conversion is now being done in several places for this thread. No problem. TITLE seems different, to me. I _asked_ whether I'm wrong about that - whether it's _not_ the case that TITLE is wide open as to what it might contain, and whether/why a ` or a ' char, or even a `...' context, in TITLE should be handled the way we handle sexps, file names, etc. in Info and Help. I'm no expert on TITLE or quoting in customize choice tags. So I raised the _question_ (actually, it was raised before me). I don't see why TITLE should have its text converted. No response to that question. I'd really like to know why TITLE should be treated the same as text that talks about sexps etc., i.e., the same as Info and Help. > > All I've seen are vague pronouncements that > > doing that would produce TITLEs that are "a > > bit nicer". An opinion as worthy as another > > perhaps, but "I like it" is hardly a reason > > why changing user TITLEs is preferable to > > just leaving them well enough alone. >=20 > You have an option to disable that if you don't like it. I repeat: it's not about what I like. It's about what the behavior should be for TITLE. Should users have to escape ` and ' to _prevent_ their conversion to curly quotes? Or should they have to provide curly quotes if that's what they really want. What are the pros & cons to each of those approaches _for TITLE_? > > You can say "I like curly quotes", and I can > > say "I like straight quotes". Opinions. >=20 > The way Emacs deals with different opinions is to have user options. > We have one here, so please customize your sessions to your liking, > and let's stop these futile disputes. You elided the text that followed that, which made clear that the point is that this is NOT about personal opinions or preferences for personal use. You even elided the reference to "Go=FBts et couleurs", which (explained earlier) is an expression saying that it makes no sense to argue about personal tastes. This is not about personal taste. I repeat the text you elided: [T]he real issue is leaving TITLEs up to users. Users are perfectly capable of deciding what _they_ prefer for their TITLEs. Why not leave TITLE alone, since (if) it can be any text with any meaning for any reason? Note that Mauro asked similar questions about other parts of this thread, e.g., Thinking about it, why do we need to call substitute-command-keys on the VALUE part (i.e., the cdr of the cons cell), in case of simple item definitions? And Steve was the first to raise the TITLE question: when I enter e.g. `0' at the "Title: " prompt in the minibuffer, it displays "Use '1'", i.e., with curve-quoting. But if I omit the call to substitute-command-keys on the cdr in widget-choose, then typing `0' at the "Title: " prompt displays "Use `1'", i.e. with grave-quoting. But I don't know which one is the intended result. And Ola and Steve agreed that it makes no sense to curly-quote the cdr (choice return value). But they also agreed that TITLE should use curly quotes. IOW, different parts of this thread led to discussion of curly-quoting specific things. My comments were only wrt TITLE. The only reason given, AFAICT, was by Steve: "since the title is simply a display feature". That reason isn't clear, to me. Steve followed that by saying that it wouldn't make much difference because existing uses of TITLE don't use quotes. He said that curling quotes in TITLE "might be relevant for third party use or future uses in Emacs, as well as for ad-hoc uses of simple item definitions." That's true, and that's the point of my question: Why suppose it's better (e.g. for 3rd-party or future use) to curl any straight quotes used in TITLE? No answer to that, AFAICT. The conclusion given doesn't follow, IMO: "So applying substition to all uses of TITLE seems appropriate." Why would it be appropriate? And Mauro asked a similar question to my "Why?":=20 What would be a real-life scenario where we need to use substitute-command-keys on TITLE? I can't think of any. Maybe he meant substitute-command-keys as opposed to substitute-quotes; dunno. My question is why use either - why curl quotes in TITLE at all? I don't ask for a real-life scenario where that might be helpful. I ask why doing that _systematically_, automatically, is a good idea? Steve agreed he can't think of a good example where substitute-command-keys is needed for TITLE. He ended with "Unless some undesirable consequence of applying substitute-command-keys to TITLE is found, I don't see any harm in allowing such uses." Mauro then voted for not adding quote conversion "until it's really needed" - "I'd leave it out". He suggested that it be left to a maintainer to decide. Steve then agreed to "leaving TITLE alone for now" and leaving it up to a maintainer. Mauro replied "Let's wait then." That's when Stefan chimed in with his suggestion to curl quotes in TITLE, his reason being that it would "make it look a bit nicer". That's when I chimed in to say that it won't necessarily look nicer or otherwise be appropriate, because TITLE can contain any text at all. Still true, AFAIK. But then again, no one has spoken to that. What are the expectation wrt what users might use in TITLE?