From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:51:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20230809094655.793FC18A4654@snark.thyrsus.com> <87il9owg0f.fsf@yahoo.com> <87fs4pkkqi.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87jztzkgct.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87y1if8j8t.fsf@linux-m68k.org> <87y1ifi9fv.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87zg2uqdmv.fsf@localhost> <87edk3gbh3.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87jztvnuyb.fsf@localhost> <875y5bdutt.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87y1i6e1uh.fsf@localhost> <874jkub40o.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7872"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Emanuel Berg , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 20 23:52:15 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qXqLG-0001rY-P2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 23:52:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qXqKd-0000E3-Up; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 17:51:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qXqKc-0000Du-4E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 17:51:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qXqKZ-0004TL-JX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 17:51:33 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (m0246617.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 37KIj3mQ029154; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:51:25 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2023-03-30; bh=omYyUzAAPAVqh0JRHQIfHYwyY4nwDUis8IDaLfYKJl8=; b=XS7MQla50Trv4sFvlK5xHcMmhxD3McfBx3Gxh52XpFs68+7wOCdE6XW06FGSwHVSbQxh Pvv1UgVgC6BT+w7/CgByzkAVgdqcSd+52u4iMMf1+zZSRmUfjU+hizVnvwPkKwnj+hYZ t2x5Wnw3E6eBSdpGxyiyZZ3O+rSTybu95/FP9w5uUcmTdtxyuExzfzgiNGX4TNjiqhYB 3R6seHYbBLwbLUitGKPLR/nOl7TpgfrnYHJFTBYY0+ldzyTRuITJ6dwLkMmkYfyyLMsb qz5G8eyFN37JSMiWePaCU7BpyoMmY5Hnwkv4pcxJCgCWwPUE7KagVc9iwpBh8zOs2nNw yA== Original-Received: from iadpaimrmta02.imrmtpd1.prodappiadaev1.oraclevcn.com (iadpaimrmta02.appoci.oracle.com [147.154.18.20]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3sjp9u9kqd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:51:25 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (iadpaimrmta02.imrmtpd1.prodappiadaev1.oraclevcn.com [127.0.0.1]) by iadpaimrmta02.imrmtpd1.prodappiadaev1.oraclevcn.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 37KGYh8S007745; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:51:24 GMT Original-Received: from nam12-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12lp2042.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.66.42]) by iadpaimrmta02.imrmtpd1.prodappiadaev1.oraclevcn.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3sjm62rw5x-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:51:23 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=jmIqQGtx0oAskvSiW9EVfyDicBAGcmOGePtwY336Iy3cVXmAxvBcokB7rR5FbOp26Q5JE9dsSqxUzRUBaCn2Xa/kc1T4r/SjWXTBo5o6hUKlfM1/u6wUbdyT9CSrmpHiztAoREguC1bL5VBHLRTBmpNGR4rtwNEKGn/e2Hoc6wzuewZxJMzZEU6rgt+gfqU4iOc0rhrH871Kl4k9NnuTA0GauYVB1vFniLmyCFGHVv5tFWUaWlKDZyq9VVjxauzsT1o8DFSwluP8jo3eBsliw7cEGX/zVJ84yUKm/CaDuyZKIWB12Dc2lePdSi4HC19A9V/HJC/kREhRyvdSTB+m2Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=omYyUzAAPAVqh0JRHQIfHYwyY4nwDUis8IDaLfYKJl8=; b=BB5Ej8Z7eFLLzcNzTgXSjV2jU7engsyV8VKKsK8rL6gUxKCJmk6vmdGRdPYbmV854eO5ugRC9UpstFwnjAwBUIPgpCpO2kbeknJly8FTH7nMo2dDH10zF4zIDJp//6OCoJ52+Bi3bO3QUu7AW0RLDpDs+tI6MRumGFGf2CAXKwyHQX7mxEsXh9LmpbPJuYzHetCr/IqmvrV/kQ0iiIivYF7hbpPjOHwE4RCqdtcOtq8CZT4HOFCs+MUkvkcgDeSyQwWmIMMqKV8x1swE3PbSAZrDJyzMRfy83xbMaTf5zYh2zGroN1u0/zPh2XW00NiGSnWUdanbSLBuBN7BFtg84w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=omYyUzAAPAVqh0JRHQIfHYwyY4nwDUis8IDaLfYKJl8=; b=mebjOuxka/quk0taawDJ5QxteXlHE/Mg9y+MKc+wWiSAY1L4Q5p4zvZDRm09BJf8o28Bgp09pSuLjtt2PXRKVrVgG4CH8DA4hzgBf+u1oEP5SqJcBCoc5McYK6M7TlWR6hQvO0kR1tUN+cTux042Q2XVrdc9p0HE0/2dxcmwheI= Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by SJ0PR10MB6302.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:44e::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6699.20; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:51:21 +0000 Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::26ee:5721:d884:4321]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::26ee:5721:d884:4321%5]) with mapi id 15.20.6699.020; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:51:21 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core Thread-Index: AQHZ0zOQePCFAsSWOEKuDErmPWxIc6/zubvg In-Reply-To: <874jkub40o.fsf@dataswamp.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|SJ0PR10MB6302:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0a4d5937-5c8e-4ef1-21dc-08dba1c797a7 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230031)(39860400002)(376002)(396003)(366004)(136003)(346002)(451199024)(1800799009)(186009)(86362001)(76116006)(110136005)(64756008)(44832011)(5660300002)(33656002)(41300700001)(4744005)(316002)(2906002)(66946007)(66556008)(66446008)(66476007)(966005)(8936002)(52536014)(8676002)(478600001)(71200400001)(9686003)(38100700002)(38070700005)(7696005)(6506007)(122000001)(26005)(55016003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?us-ascii?Q?dpXZnjz7pfIwa4hIbK0WKJcFNas9f5R3orDp+8jtesAKEUIonBCz9qhGt07E?= =?us-ascii?Q?dA+umvdDPVe5s9QzLGzg/y5J24rJmz9y9NBZTBXT4+EUwGAyxoN//vxpMig9?= =?us-ascii?Q?P+QvNP2nEn2osHyZA9dOHyfwNFuKiQsY6EcXYZcdbAPDImw5tQMVUgei1lwB?= =?us-ascii?Q?iA/pi4mNqqisgr3tY3gen8ADaFD5KwpWEj7/GAB+ePDylveQmGGz5QVTqrXf?= =?us-ascii?Q?0N44mCML7wOJRNSWbs4K+FhJnxiaLwnF4q1Kl76P8NCvlVNWyA85RzAr9ott?= =?us-ascii?Q?FMf9RC0Ro75cKV6ckUCyO9soDSaUB+ayTNebYyGGlQfG9BGO18VDnUFLWl8P?= =?us-ascii?Q?K/VRVIXzi77xZVrX4ZB4xZy61m5Ppey1VUmoBU4eupEARbVatbH0Hn1ENXYV?= =?us-ascii?Q?frUS2zEviVA08JljSvU04xeiSq4D2Cj5cwjsShA3A1QdZZu6ZZwfM5AaMKCT?= =?us-ascii?Q?o0HMsGgB3oD3zmu+6nmV7i/synvsKbV2HxoDii8sH3TZbh0rWb9DTQ6grnci?= =?us-ascii?Q?n4+v77p/S3Bip/WcYRk6F0twBadFQ88PEf1ho+wRLbdymfnXiMJ2GH343ndP?= =?us-ascii?Q?khY0uaTkv07V7FmEI4cO3WnO79eb7RRhZCZxce5NmGpQ5febpVh6t4MLAG1N?= =?us-ascii?Q?pw X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 XIqYZUlqzsrimn2ADgF8t7tnSzppDphYaZuwgpCw== X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0a4d5937-5c8e-4ef1-21dc-08dba1c797a7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Aug 2023 21:51:21.7729 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +pB6+vy6oeIaepvOnAJKUDRJQ/cSw0+3NWwN21BO4EhiUfoRgOSPRNAwDnym7eZw8PhTUXeLnk2YiqshGzaZSg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR10MB6302 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.267,Aquarius:18.0.957,Hydra:6.0.601,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-08-20_15,2023-08-18_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=912 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2306200000 definitions=main-2308200212 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: F2JaT8XU0GoQq53zcNFBm5A1x3Az8Ep7 X-Proofpoint-GUID: F2JaT8XU0GoQq53zcNFBm5A1x3Az8Ep7 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.220.165.32; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_DOTEDU=1.999 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309001 Archived-At: > > The discussion about floor started from Alfred using `floor' > > as an example where CL uses system-dependent optimizations > > and thus being much faster. >=20 > So the answer to the question, Why is SBCL faster? > is "optimizations". And the answer to the question, Why don't > we have those optimizations? is "they are not portable"? https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node103.html#SECTION00130000= 0000000000000 Common Lisp is a standard. Different implementations of it should respect the standard, but the standard allows for different behaviors to some extent, esp. wrt performance. CL has multiple ways of declaring different levels of optimization, which a given implementation can support or not. Particular optimizations are not expected to be portable.