bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

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Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used.

I have been modifying bash scripts and the introduced tabs are driving me insane.

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bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000
> From:  goncholden via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default?  Tabs should not be used.

That depends on the major mode.  E.g., in text mode and its
derivatives this is turned off.  But in programming modes, many
languages accept TABs, so using them is not a bad idea, especially
since this is a long-standing Emacs default.

> I have been modifying bash scripts and the introduced tabs are driving me insane.

Maybe shell-mode should change its defaults, then.  I don't use that
too much, so I don't have an opinion.

Of course, arguing about defaults is many times futile, since changing
them is very easy.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, June 9th, 2022 at 5:38 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000
> > From: goncholden via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
> > the Swiss army knife of text editors" bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used.
>
>
> That depends on the major mode. E.g., in text mode and its
> derivatives this is turned off. But in programming modes, many
> languages accept TABs, so using them is not a bad idea, especially
> since this is a long-standing Emacs default.
>
> > I have been modifying bash scripts and the introduced tabs are driving me insane.
>
>
> Maybe shell-mode should change its defaults, then. I don't use that
> too much, so I don't have an opinion.
>
> Of course, arguing about defaults is many times futile, since changing
> them is very easy.
>

It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode.

You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're
interested in setting it.

We're not going to change any defaults in this area, because that would
break people's setups, and I'm therefore closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 1:00 AM, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode.
>
>
> You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're
> interested in setting it.

Fantastic!  Could you show me how I can do that exactly?

> We're not going to change any defaults in this area, because that would
> break people's setups, and I'm therefore closing this bug report.
>
> --
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
> bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> Fantastic!  Could you show me how I can do that exactly?

This is a bug tracker -- please use the Emacs help mailing lists for
questions like this.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 13:34:52 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're
> > interested in setting it.
> 
> Fantastic!  Could you show me how I can do that exactly?

Something like this:

 (defun my-FOO-stuff ()
   (setq indent-tabs-mode nil)
 (add-hook 'FOO-mode-hook 'my-FOO-stuff)

(Replace "FOO" with the actual mode name.)

Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Sean Whitton]

Hello,

On Thu 09 Jun 2022 at 06:53PM +03, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 13:34:52 +0000
>> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>> > You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're
>> > interested in setting it.
>>
>> Fantastic!  Could you show me how I can do that exactly?
>
> Something like this:
>
>  (defun my-FOO-stuff ()
>    (setq indent-tabs-mode nil)
>  (add-hook 'FOO-mode-hook 'my-FOO-stuff)
>
> (Replace "FOO" with the actual mode name.)

Perhaps also worth mentioning the little-known:

    (require 'mode-local)
    (setq-mode-local foo-mode indent-tabs-mode nil)

-- 
Sean Whitton

Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 1:00 PM, Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> wrote:


> Hello,
>
> On Thu 09 Jun 2022 at 06:53PM +03, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
> > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 13:34:52 +0000
> > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> > >
> > > > You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're
> > > > interested in setting it.
> > >
> > > Fantastic! Could you show me how I can do that exactly?
> >
> > Something like this:
> >
> > (defun my-FOO-stuff ()
> > (setq indent-tabs-mode nil)
> > (add-hook 'FOO-mode-hook 'my-FOO-stuff)
> >
> > (Replace "FOO" with the actual mode name.)
>
>
> Perhaps also worth mentioning the little-known:
>
> (require 'mode-local)
> (setq-mode-local foo-mode indent-tabs-mode nil)
>
> --
> Sean Whitton

Related to this is whether the following makes sense and it's good to use.

(defun my-FOO-stuff ()
 (setq-local indent-tabs-mode nil)
 (add-hook 'FOO-mode-hook 'my-FOO-stuff)

Can one `add-hook` to `FOO-mode-hook`, when one is using `setq-local`, of has it to be global for the major mode using `(setq indent-tabs-mode nil)`?

Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Stefan Monnier]

> Perhaps also worth mentioning the little-known:
>
>     (require 'mode-local)
>     (setq-mode-local foo-mode indent-tabs-mode nil)

FWIW, I don't like this one because you lose control about *when* the
variable is set.


        Stefan

Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, June 14th, 2022 at 1:06 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:


> > Perhaps also worth mentioning the little-known:
> >
> > (require 'mode-local)
> > (setq-mode-local foo-mode indent-tabs-mode nil)
>
>
> FWIW, I don't like this one because you lose control about when the
> variable is set.
>
>
> Stefan

The current standing strategy is using

(setq indent-tabs-mode nil)

This variable should be buffer local.  But I wonder whether this can be made global or by major-mode.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:40:35 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > Of course, arguing about defaults is many times futile, since changing
> > them is very easy.
> >
> 
> It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode.

Every major mode has a mode hook, and the usual way to customize a
mode is in that hook.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

A 2016 survey by Felipe Hoffa concluded that spaces far outpace tabs in every major programming language with the exceptions of C, one of the very oldest programming languages, and Google's Go.

It is worth reconsidering the decision to stick with tabs in future.  I do not know of any mechanism to show (with some symbol) the beginning of each tab and the end of a line when space happens at the end of a line.

https://hoffa.medium.com/400-000-github-repositories-1-billion-files-14-terabytes-of-code-spaces-or-tabs-7cfe0b5dd7fd#.o7n8zeezx


------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 1:12 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:40:35 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > > Of course, arguing about defaults is many times futile, since changing
> > > them is very easy.
> >
> > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode.
>
>
> Every major mode has a mode hook, and the usual way to customize a
> mode is in that hook.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:05:49 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I do not know of any mechanism to show (with some symbol) the beginning of each tab and the end of a line when space happens at the end of a line.

Try "M-x whitespace-mode RET".

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Drew Adams]

> It is worth reconsidering the decision to stick with tabs in future.  I
> do not know of any mechanism to show (with some symbol) the beginning
> of each tab and the end of a line when space happens at the end of a
> line.

FWIW: You can use my library `highlight-chars.el'
to highlight TAB chars (or any chars) individually:

  M-x hc-highlight-chars
  TAB
  [enter the face you want for it]

Use `hc-toggle-highlight-trailing-whitespace' to
highlight trailing whitespace with a different face.

But as the code stands now, trailing whitespace
includes TAB chars.  As a quick hack you can edit
`hc-highlight-trailing-whitespace' to remove TAB
chars from the (hard-coded, so far) regexp of chars
to match:

(font-lock-add-keywords
  nil
  `(("[\u00a0\040\t]+$"   ; <===== Remove \t
     (0 'hc-trailing-whitespace
        ,hc-font-lock-override)))
  'APPEND)

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ShowWhiteSpace#HighlightChars

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/highlight-chars.el

[FWIW2: I'm one of the many who think the default
 should be changed to nil.  There was a fair
 amount of discussion, but t carried the day.]  

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
------- Original Message -------

On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 4:06 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:


> > It is worth reconsidering the decision to stick with tabs in future. I
> > do not know of any mechanism to show (with some symbol) the beginning
> > of each tab and the end of a line when space happens at the end of a
> > line.
>
>
> FWIW: You can use my library `highlight-chars.el' to highlight TAB chars (or any chars) individually: M-x hc-highlight-chars TAB [enter the face you want for it] Use` hc-toggle-highlight-trailing-whitespace' to
> highlight trailing whitespace with a different face.
>
> But as the code stands now, trailing whitespace
> includes TAB chars. As a quick hack you can edit
> `hc-highlight-trailing-whitespace' to remove TAB chars from the (hard-coded, so far) regexp of chars to match: (font-lock-add-keywords nil` (("[\u00a0\040\t]+$" ; <===== Remove \t
> (0 'hc-trailing-whitespace
> ,hc-font-lock-override)))
> 'APPEND)
>
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ShowWhiteSpace#HighlightChars
>
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/highlight-chars.el
>
> [FWIW2: I'm one of the many who think the default
> should be changed to nil. There was a fair
> amount of discussion, but t carried the day.]

What about visws.el ?  Have tried using it but cannot get it to function.  I have done as follows and emacs did not respond well to it.

(defun visws ()
 "TODO"

 (add-to-list
 'load-path "~/contrib/visws")
 (require 'visible-whitespace-mode)
 (visible-whitespace-mode))

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 09.06.2022 15:40, goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss 
army knife of text editors wrote:
> It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode.

You can customize 'indent-tabs-mode' globally to nil, to use spaces in 
most language modes.

The ones that really need tabs (such as makefile-mode) will continue to 
use them anyway.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 2:11 AM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> On 09.06.2022 15:40, goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss
> army knife of text editors wrote:
>
> > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode.
>
>
> You can customize 'indent-tabs-mode' globally to nil, to use spaces in
> most language modes.

If it is changed globally, I would think it would be a bad idea for major modes that require tabs.  Can use setq-default perhaps.

> The ones that really need tabs (such as makefile-mode) will continue to
> use them anyway.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 09.06.2022 17:18, goncholden wrote:
> If it is changed globally, I would think it would be a bad idea for major modes that require tabs.  Can use setq-default perhaps.

You seem to have missed the last sentence in my email.

And customization does have a similar effect to setq-default.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 09.06.2022 08:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000
>> From:  goncholden via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>>   the Swiss army knife of text editors"<bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
>>
>> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default?  Tabs should not be used.
> That depends on the major mode.  E.g., in text mode and its
> derivatives this is turned off.  But in programming modes, many
> languages accept TABs, so using them is not a bad idea, especially
> since this is a long-standing Emacs default.
> 

It being a long-time default of ours has no effect on whether using tabs 
is a good idea (since Emacs is not particularly popular these days to 
affect global practive).

But you know my opinion on this anyway.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 2:10 AM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:


> On 09.06.2022 08:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
> > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000
> > > From: goncholden via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
> > > the Swiss army knife of text editors"bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > >
> > > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used.
> > > That depends on the major mode. E.g., in text mode and its
> > > derivatives this is turned off. But in programming modes, many
> > > languages accept TABs, so using them is not a bad idea, especially
> > > since this is a long-standing Emacs default.
>
>
> It being a long-time default of ours has no effect on whether using tabs
> is a good idea (since Emacs is not particularly popular these days to
> affect global practive).
>
> But you know my opinion on this anyway.

This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for passed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for passed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies.

The crowd of youngsters from 2020s are welcome to come aboard in their
masses and take over from the old farts.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 4:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for passed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies.
>
>
> The crowd of youngsters from 2020s are welcome to come aboard in their
> masses and take over from the old farts.

I am from the seventies actually.  The youngsters will take over but maintainers should be forward thinking.  Else things would stay put even when they take over.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:32:07 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 4:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000
> > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> > >
> > > This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for passed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies.
> >
> >
> > The crowd of youngsters from 2020s are welcome to come aboard in their
> > masses and take over from the old farts.
> 
> I am from the seventies actually.  The youngsters will take over but maintainers should be forward thinking.

We do: I'm from the fifties.  So by being stuck in the eighties, I'm
looking forward 30 years -- not bad for an old grunt such as myself.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 4:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for passed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies.
>
>
> The crowd of youngsters from 2020s are welcome to come aboard in their
> masses and take over from the old farts.

The problem occurs mainly because tab widths are not consistent.  As is known, tab widths relate directly with spaces, but that information is lost.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:44:27 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> The problem occurs mainly because tab widths are not consistent.  As is known, tab widths relate directly with spaces, but that information is lost.

If you work in an environment where people change the visual width of
TABs, then indeed you will want not to use TABs.  But that is not a
given.

bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default

[Drew Adams]

> It being a long-time default of ours has no effect on whether using
> tabs is a good idea (since Emacs is not particularly popular these days to
> affect global practive).
> 
> But you know my opinion on this anyway.

As long as reasons are being given, let me add this one:

People copy bits of code and paste that text into places
other than Emacs - online Q&A forums, email, etc.

TAB chars here and there due to `indent-tabs-mode' force
users to manually reformat the code - or at least to have
known about and thought to use `M-x untabify' beforehand.

This ex-Emacs use case is likely larger today than it was
decades ago.  Defaulting the var to t just produces more
bother and annoyance, especially for newbies (who are
less likely to use `untabify').

Just one more reason why the current default is not ideal.

Not that posting this here will help.  Except that it
might bring it to the attention of a few readers to whom
it might not have occurred.