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Fri, 7 Jan 2022 05:58:01 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Thread-Index: AQHYA4GLyRg93iqmYUuTMoi36bkxtaxXAQlA In-Reply-To: <87mtk8ywye.fsf@yahoo.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: caa858af-5920-4d4a-0d8f-08d9d1a2a9eb x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR10MB3382:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:284366 Archived-At: > >> There goes the _most_ important aspect of this: > >> it's been around for a long time, which is > >> precisely why it's a great idea to stick with it. > > > > What part of "no, I'm not saying this isn't > > important", did you have trouble with? >=20 > You proceeded to dismiss the importance of that problem. No, not at all. I asked that, "for a second", we abstract from that problem to consider what behavior we'd think was best without it. I wanted to know what we think is the better approach, other things being equal - as a starting point for discussion. If it's not even considered generally better, in the abstract, to separate hand-coding and generated code, then there's no need to add an a fortiori argument of "it's longstanding". To make such a change, a minimal starting point is agreeing that, other things being equal, separate is better. Disagreement on that means no sense in going further. And yes, "other things being equal" is an expression which takes for granted that other things need NOT be equal. It doesn't at all dismiss their importance. > > > it's too established to change now, no ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > matter how good an idea the change is. > > > > That's a pretty broad argument. It argues > > against pretty much all of the small & large > > changes Emacs has undergone over the last > > couple of decades. It's a blanket argument > > against both good & bad changes. >=20 > This is not an addition of a new feature, which > should be off by default if it interferes with > existing code (think lexical binding). Doesn't matter to your statement, which was only that if something is longstanding then it should be kept - a blanket argument for keeping the status quo, what's "established". The lack of lexical binding was longstanding. That lack was removed (thank goodness). > It is a change to very long-standing behaviour > that is also relied on by many people. The absence of a `custom-file' by default is "relied on"? How so? What would giving `custom-file' a default value deprive anyone of? No one has suggested that anyone _has_ to use a separate custom file, just as now no one says that everyone _must not_ use a separate file. > > (Think how long the lack of lexical > > binding was "established".) >=20 > And lexical binding is still optional,=20 But there's no longer any lack of it. A change was introduced, bucking your rule of not changing whatever's long been the case. > so the use of dynamic binding by default > is as established as it used to be. What was established was that there was _only_ dynamic binding. That's no longer the case. > > This change would cause no such disruption. >=20 > It might not for you, but would for a lot of people. How so? Are you talking about a minority of users having to explicitly say that they don't want a separate file - e.g. simply setting `custom-file' to nil? As opposed to the majority having to say that they do want a separate file? I'm assuming you agree it's generally better, for more people than not, to use a separate `custom-file'. There are more future than past users, and for a new user the "other thing" of longstanding habit doesn't apply. There may be still "other things" to consider (what?), but that one is moot for new users.