From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#400: [External] : Re: bug#400: 23.0.60; C-h v should pick up lispified name in Customize Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 16:15:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <007f01c8cca9$3cbbf770$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <875z8rum4k.fsf@gnus.org> <83o8mjnf5n.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee8eannc.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3495"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "larsi@gnus.org" , "stefan@marxist.se" , "400@debbugs.gnu.org" <400@debbugs.gnu.org> To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 21 18:16:44 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mdakF-0000g8-Uh for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(6506007)(86362001)(33656002)(26005)(186003)(7696005)(71200400001)(4326008)(6916009)(8676002)(508600001)(44832011)(2906002)(8936002)(66556008)(66476007)(66946007)(66446008)(64756008)(55016002)(9686003)(122000001)(52536014)(54906003)(316002)(38070700005)(76116006)(83380400001)(38100700002)(5660300002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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 Bnk/mVXPMbpsv6kLQV7kIz8CopWZViqzZJ7/fSbPIrNFWS7mFNOoiELADxTf685dJzK+Gb6Vk+EFNK9GTlFDEG5HHMyb2rBjDs X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b728ed12-9e22-4b29-fe81-08d994adf84f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Oct 2021 16:15:16.5154 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: drew.adams@oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR10MB4385 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10144 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110210082 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: yjr18P_B_9um1Lgm6VkkVlpE6jcUNtT0 X-Proofpoint-GUID: yjr18P_B_9um1Lgm6VkkVlpE6jcUNtT0 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:217773 Archived-At: > > Eli says this isn't reasonable because the doc is > > already displayed in Customize. It is displayed > > (though it might be partially hidden), but without > > its _links_. Being shown there is no substitute > > for *Help*. >=20 > And why is that a problem? Customize is not for people > who will look at the code, Code? > Customize is for people who want easy customizations, > which presumes new users. Customize is for everyone, new users included. Anyone who appreciates immediate info about option values, interactive choice of colors etc., type control/checking, taking care of accessory initialization or setting operations, saving, etc. > Any particular reason why would they so > sorely miss what *Help* adds to the doc string? Why new users would sorely miss what *Help* offers? Dunno about "sorely", but same reasons that *Help* bothers to offer what it does - links to related things (including other user options, commands to toggle options, etc.). When you customize an option you might want to understand it - know more about it. That's what *Help* is for. And as I mentioned, an alternative to linking to *Help* could be to link to the manual. Or the manual if doc'd there and *Help* if not. Or bring up both. The real point is that from Customize give users a quick way to get to more info about the option (or face). > However, we could extend "C-h v" to take the default from the variable > being customized in the current Custom buffer, if there's nothing > appropriate at point. Would that be okay? Okay? I can't speak to what compromise is OK. `C-h v' should, IMO, as usual provide as default the variable name at point. You can use it on another variable mentioned in the doc shown, for example. But yes, _with point on the option name_, `C-h v' should use that as default value. > > I also think that `custom-unlispify-tag-names' > > should be OFF by default. >=20 > I disagree, again because this feature targets new users, for whom the > Lisp-style names could very well be confusing and alien. 1. Customize doesn't target only new users. 2. New users need to talk with Emacs about options using their (real) names. That's not about Lisp, per se. It's about the _option name_. Only the option name is an entry point to info about the option. Option names are not something that only lispers use or only they should use or have knowledge of. The more immediately we introduce a user (new or old) to the _actual name_ of an option, the more we help them. The more we obscure that name, the more we do users (new and old) a disservice. The substitution of capitalized, space-separated "words" for the actual name of an option in Customize is one of the _worst_ - perhaps the worst - UI decision made for Emacs design. It should be removed altogether - it confuses rather than helps. I can think of no way in which it helps anyone - _especially_ new users. It just hides the option name behind some awful, useless chrome - chrome that has less, not more, meaning than the real name. On this one, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. > > The Lisp name is what's useful to users - > > all users. >=20 > DISAGREE!! That's not how this feature is designed to work; your > opinions are noted, but they are against the spirit of Customize. You decide for Emacs. But I don't think you can really speak for "the spirit of Customize". Not more than others. That's the way it is, sorry.