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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:284429 Archived-At: > From your response, there are a couple of additional > points I'd like to make to clarify some things. >=20 > The reason I don't think just setting the custom file > to some value really covers the full scope of the > change is because in addition to that change, it will > also be necessary to add code to make emacs load that file. I assume you mean load that file _automatically_, since users can (and do) already load it in their init files. Automatically loading `custom-file', if it isn't loaded by the init file (and any code that file loads etc.), is not a hard requirement. It's something that could easily be done, but it's not _required_ to advance the aim of getting more users aware of and using `custom-file'. > This means either the timing of loading that file would then > be up to Emacs or we would have to add some other switch to disable > automatic loading to restore user control over loading that file. Yes. But I think that can be as simple as what I suggested: 1. Automatically load `custom-file' (provided it's not the same as the init file) immediately after the init file is loaded. (We already automatically load other files if they exist - site-lisp.el etc.) 2. Provide users with a way to inhibit automatic loading if they need/want to do that. (Those users who want to do everything in their init file are not involved in this - they'd just set `custom-file' to their init file.) > So already the 'simple' change proposal has added additional complexity > (albeit small).=20 As I say, automatic loading isn't a requirement. It's a feature. And with #2 it's optional. (One way to realize #2 would be with a user option. We could discuss its default value.) > There could be other corner cases I've not thought of as > well, especially once we add a new 'toggle' for the loading behaviour. If we're really worried about that, then we just don't provide any such automatic loading. I don't expect problems, but automatic loading isn't a requirement. Nothing in the general aim and proposed solutions requires it. Without it, users would just be responsible for loading `custom-file' - like now. Not a big deal, but I think it might help users to provide it (new users especially). > The change management aspects I referred to are perhaps a little subtle > and are certainly hard to quantify. However, it is often way too easy to > underestimate the impact of such change and identify what needs to be > done to mitigate it. This impact can be especially hard to recognise > when you are invested in the change. I don't disagree with that general point. I don't foresee any complications, but I'm _not_ really invested in Emacs providing the ability to automatically load `custom-file'. > Things which need to be considered > (some of which have been mentioned) include >=20 > - dealing with impact on existing users > - updating documentation, including manuals, howtos, faqs etc > - managing the confusion that will arise due to the amount of existing > and easily found information out there (stack overflow, reddit, wikki, > blogs, books etc) which will be out of date and will likely cause more > confusion. Sure. > Just dealing with the first one will likely result in the final solution > being more complex than simply setting a default custom file value, > which in turn will make the other points more substantial to deal with. I don't think so, but I can't prove you're wrong. Suppose we don't offer automatic loading. If you don't load `custom-file' (from your init file or in some other way) then it doesn't get loaded. End of story. Or suppose we offer it, but by way of a user option that by default is off (no autoload). IOW, no change from what we do now, in this respect (no autoloading of `custom-file'). In that case, the change is just to default `custom-file' to a standard location, not to nil. Now reread your paragraph of things that need to be considered. Not a big deal in this case, right? I wouldn't be completely happy with that solution, but it would still be an improvement. As I said, it would even be a (small) improvement if Emacs would just come out and recommend to users to use `custom-file', instead of just warning them, in the init-file template-comment, not to edit the inserted generated code. I'd hope that we go further than that, but even that would help. > The above are some of the reasons I think it may be misleading to > characterise the proposal as something simple.=20 "The proposal" is really a set/hierarchy of proposals, from trivially simple, with little effect (and I hope little controversy), to something that includes possibly automatically loading `custom-file'. I hope you'll agree that the mere change to defaulting `custom-file' to a file name isn't complicated in its implications, and it should not be controversial. All of what would happen in that case already happens, if a user sets `custom-file' to a file name. If no one loads that file, or if that file remains nonexistent or empty, we're in no-op land. Even users who only want to use their init file for customizations wouldn't be impacted. No-op. > However, I would be in support if I thought > this was an actual problem needing to be addressed. Maybe think of it as what we have now: offering `custom-file', but just making use of it a bit more visible and likely. Instead of thinking "problem" and "solution", maybe just think that it might help more users to take advantage of `custom-file'. > TO me, it really does feel more like a solution in search of a problem > or at the very least, a change which will result in non-trivial effort > (at various levels) when there is little evidence it is really required. I understand that you feel that. I think your fears are unnecessary. Take out the "automatic loading" feature from your consideration, and see how fearful you still are.