From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:18:57 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <SJ0PR10MB5488306D0690EBF1D63048BCF34D9@SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87a6g8m1n1.fsf@gmail.com>
> From your response, there are a couple of additional
> points I'd like to make to clarify some things.
>
> The reason I don't think just setting the custom file
> to some value really covers the full scope of the
> change is because in addition to that change, it will
> also be necessary to add code to make emacs load that file.
I assume you mean load that file _automatically_,
since users can (and do) already load it in their
init files.
Automatically loading `custom-file', if it isn't
loaded by the init file (and any code that file
loads etc.), is not a hard requirement.
It's something that could easily be done, but it's
not _required_ to advance the aim of getting more
users aware of and using `custom-file'.
> This means either the timing of loading that file would then
> be up to Emacs or we would have to add some other switch to disable
> automatic loading to restore user control over loading that file.
Yes. But I think that can be as simple as what
I suggested:
1. Automatically load `custom-file' (provided it's
not the same as the init file) immediately after
the init file is loaded.
(We already automatically load other files if
they exist - site-lisp.el etc.)
2. Provide users with a way to inhibit automatic
loading if they need/want to do that.
(Those users who want to do everything in their
init file are not involved in this - they'd
just set `custom-file' to their init file.)
> So already the 'simple' change proposal has added additional complexity
> (albeit small).
As I say, automatic loading isn't a requirement.
It's a feature. And with #2 it's optional.
(One way to realize #2 would be with a user
option. We could discuss its default value.)
> There could be other corner cases I've not thought of as
> well, especially once we add a new 'toggle' for the loading behaviour.
If we're really worried about that, then we
just don't provide any such automatic loading.
I don't expect problems, but automatic loading
isn't a requirement. Nothing in the general
aim and proposed solutions requires it.
Without it, users would just be responsible for
loading `custom-file' - like now. Not a big
deal, but I think it might help users to provide
it (new users especially).
> The change management aspects I referred to are perhaps a little subtle
> and are certainly hard to quantify. However, it is often way too easy to
> underestimate the impact of such change and identify what needs to be
> done to mitigate it. This impact can be especially hard to recognise
> when you are invested in the change.
I don't disagree with that general point.
I don't foresee any complications, but I'm
_not_ really invested in Emacs providing the
ability to automatically load `custom-file'.
> Things which need to be considered
> (some of which have been mentioned) include
>
> - dealing with impact on existing users
> - updating documentation, including manuals, howtos, faqs etc
> - managing the confusion that will arise due to the amount of existing
> and easily found information out there (stack overflow, reddit, wikki,
> blogs, books etc) which will be out of date and will likely cause more
> confusion.
Sure.
> Just dealing with the first one will likely result in the final solution
> being more complex than simply setting a default custom file value,
> which in turn will make the other points more substantial to deal with.
I don't think so, but I can't prove you're wrong.
Suppose we don't offer automatic loading.
If you don't load `custom-file' (from your
init file or in some other way) then it doesn't
get loaded. End of story.
Or suppose we offer it, but by way of a user
option that by default is off (no autoload).
IOW, no change from what we do now, in this
respect (no autoloading of `custom-file').
In that case, the change is just to default
`custom-file' to a standard location, not to
nil. Now reread your paragraph of things that
need to be considered. Not a big deal in this
case, right?
I wouldn't be completely happy with that
solution, but it would still be an improvement.
As I said, it would even be a (small)
improvement if Emacs would just come out and
recommend to users to use `custom-file',
instead of just warning them, in the init-file
template-comment, not to edit the inserted
generated code.
I'd hope that we go further than that, but
even that would help.
> The above are some of the reasons I think it may be misleading to
> characterise the proposal as something simple.
"The proposal" is really a set/hierarchy of
proposals, from trivially simple, with little
effect (and I hope little controversy), to
something that includes possibly automatically
loading `custom-file'.
I hope you'll agree that the mere change to
defaulting `custom-file' to a file name isn't
complicated in its implications, and it should
not be controversial.
All of what would happen in that case already
happens, if a user sets `custom-file' to a
file name. If no one loads that file, or if
that file remains nonexistent or empty, we're
in no-op land.
Even users who only want to use their init
file for customizations wouldn't be impacted.
No-op.
> However, I would be in support if I thought
> this was an actual problem needing to be addressed.
Maybe think of it as what we have now: offering
`custom-file', but just making use of it a bit
more visible and likely. Instead of thinking
"problem" and "solution", maybe just think that
it might help more users to take advantage of
`custom-file'.
> TO me, it really does feel more like a solution in search of a problem
> or at the very least, a change which will result in non-trivial effort
> (at various levels) when there is little evidence it is really required.
I understand that you feel that. I think your
fears are unnecessary. Take out the "automatic
loading" feature from your consideration, and
see how fearful you still are.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-01-07 17:18 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 157+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-01-03 6:13 Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-03 14:47 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-04 6:13 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-04 6:45 ` tomas
2022-01-04 7:29 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-01-04 10:10 ` tomas
2022-01-04 16:44 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-01-04 17:09 ` tomas
2022-01-04 17:30 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-04 18:03 ` tomas
2022-01-04 18:27 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-04 18:41 ` tomas
2022-01-05 9:14 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-01-04 16:44 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-04 7:14 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-01-04 10:11 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-04 10:30 ` Po Lu
2022-01-04 10:46 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-04 10:59 ` Po Lu
2022-01-04 13:02 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-04 11:11 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-01-04 12:23 ` LdBeth
2022-01-04 16:44 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-01-04 13:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-04 15:17 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-01-04 15:48 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-04 15:57 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-04 15:54 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-04 16:44 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-01-04 16:49 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-04 17:14 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-04 17:32 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-04 17:45 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-04 17:55 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-04 18:24 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-04 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-04 17:35 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-04 17:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-04 17:57 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-05 9:14 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-01-05 1:01 ` Po Lu
2022-01-05 7:03 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-05 7:10 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-05 7:22 ` Po Lu
2022-01-05 7:47 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-05 7:59 ` Po Lu
2022-01-05 9:17 ` LdBeth
2022-01-05 9:26 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-05 10:54 ` Colin Baxter 😺
2022-01-05 11:24 ` Po Lu
2022-01-05 11:45 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-05 12:09 ` Colin Baxter 😺
2022-01-05 13:04 ` Po Lu
2022-01-05 19:10 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-05 19:02 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-05 19:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-05 19:36 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-05 9:35 ` Po Lu
2022-01-05 9:58 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-05 10:58 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-05 12:09 ` LdBeth
2022-01-05 12:57 ` Po Lu
2022-01-05 13:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-05 15:58 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-06 0:37 ` Po Lu
2022-01-06 7:21 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-06 7:23 ` Po Lu
2022-01-06 7:33 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-06 7:39 ` Po Lu
2022-01-06 8:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-06 9:40 ` Po Lu
2022-01-06 9:45 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-06 12:28 ` Colin Baxter 😺
2022-01-06 17:20 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-06 17:19 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-06 20:11 ` Tim Cross
2022-01-06 22:09 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-06 22:33 ` Tim Cross
2022-01-07 4:05 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-07 7:13 ` Tim Cross
2022-01-07 17:18 ` Drew Adams [this message]
2022-01-08 0:29 ` Tim Cross
2022-01-10 22:01 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-11 6:23 ` Tim Cross
2022-01-11 12:01 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-11 12:10 ` Po Lu
2022-01-11 12:25 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-11 12:42 ` tomas
[not found] ` <dbc302f1-a769-24d4-294d-e291b015229b@mnet-mail.de>
[not found] ` <Yd2W5BaccjjbJ6+q@tuxteam.de>
2022-01-11 15:23 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
[not found] ` <Yd2kAPRoYd37qCaN@tuxteam.de>
2022-01-11 16:05 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-11 16:11 ` tomas
2022-01-12 0:46 ` Po Lu
2022-01-11 12:35 ` Tim Cross
2022-01-11 15:05 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-11 20:57 ` Tim Cross
2022-01-11 13:27 ` Jean Louis
2022-01-07 0:52 ` Po Lu
2022-01-07 4:09 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-07 4:46 ` Po Lu
2022-01-07 5:58 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-07 7:04 ` Po Lu
2022-01-07 18:06 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-08 0:54 ` Po Lu
2022-01-08 3:13 ` LdBeth
2022-01-08 3:26 ` Po Lu
2022-01-08 7:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-08 13:32 ` Add list of useful settings to setup wizard was: Re: Default custom file LdBeth
2022-01-08 14:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-08 14:50 ` LdBeth
2022-01-08 14:39 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-01-08 15:30 ` LdBeth
2022-01-08 15:05 ` John Yates
2022-01-08 8:03 ` [External] : Re: Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA tomas
2022-01-08 9:38 ` Po Lu
2022-01-08 10:39 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-08 11:14 ` Po Lu
2022-01-08 12:35 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-08 12:44 ` Po Lu
2022-01-08 12:59 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-08 13:16 ` Po Lu
2022-01-08 13:24 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-08 13:33 ` Po Lu
2022-01-08 13:44 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-08 14:32 ` tomas
2022-01-08 14:46 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-08 17:17 ` Corwin Brust
2022-01-08 18:26 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
[not found] ` <MtgbBbx--B-2@tutanota.de>
[not found] ` <MtqtDSN--3-2@tutanota.de>
2022-01-20 14:25 ` Corwin Brust
2022-01-10 19:20 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-01-09 0:48 ` Po Lu
2022-01-08 13:35 ` =?gb18030?B?u9i4tKO6IFtFeHRlcm5hbF0gOiBSZTogRGVmYXVsdCBjdXN0b20gZmlsZSB3YXM6IFJlOiBQcm9wb3NlIHRvIGFkZCBzZXR1cC13aXphcmQuZWwgdG8gRUxQQQ==?= =?gb18030?B?emVyb2xlZQ==?=
2022-01-08 14:28 ` [External] : Re: Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA tomas
2022-01-08 14:48 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-08 11:42 ` tomas
2022-01-08 12:28 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-10 19:17 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-10 22:02 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-12 4:55 ` Richard Stallman
2022-01-12 8:58 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-01-12 13:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-01-12 5:09 ` Po Lu
2022-01-07 0:49 ` Po Lu
2022-01-07 4:09 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-07 4:42 ` Po Lu
2022-01-07 6:38 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-07 8:43 ` Robert Pluim
2022-01-07 9:38 ` Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez
2022-01-07 17:17 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-07 17:12 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-06 17:19 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-07 0:48 ` Po Lu
2022-01-07 4:09 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-07 6:18 ` tomas
2022-01-07 18:06 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-06 16:17 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-05 7:43 ` Drew Adams
2022-01-04 16:43 ` Drew Adams
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