From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: [External] : Re: PROPOSAL: Repurpose one key and reserve it for third-party packages Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 21:47:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7e12c1c3c1aae58993e2@heytings.org> <8ed9b43502da52e07ff5@heytings.org> <8ed9b43502576d94a2c8@heytings.org> <8ed9b43502e36d186bcb@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2401"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 09 22:48:15 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l9arn-0000Vc-0o for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Tue, 9 Feb 2021 21:47:00 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: PROPOSAL: Repurpose one key and reserve it for third-party packages Thread-Index: AQHW/yjAZ886Jh13lUG6StTL8Qll8apQVHOA In-Reply-To: <8ed9b43502e36d186bcb@heytings.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: heytings.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;heytings.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c6e5e681-4650-4bc6-a007-08d8cd443ade x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SA2PR10MB4780: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2130.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127747 Archived-At: > > But no effort is needed for keys not yet bound > > - zero, beyond documenting the fact. > > The effort, or the absence of effort, is not the > important point here. You're the one who brought up the "effort" needed by Emacs to carry out this or that proposed change. You claimed that your proposal needed less effort. I argued that it needs more effort (> zero). This was important enough that you brought it up. Now it's not important. OK. > The main point is freedom: give more freedom to both Emacs and third- > party libraries. And "documenting the fact that keys not yet bound > cannot be bound anymore" hinders Emacs' freedom. I know, you also said t= hat > "exceptions would be possible with the approval of maintainers", but > that's precisely what happened with the new "C-x x" key, and you > objected anyway. Maintainers decide. I accept that - that's their role, always, including on those occasions where I might disagree. The entire discussion was brought to emacs-devel - not by me - from a bug thread, where `C-x x' was taken over willy nilly, yes, over my objection. And the bug/enhancement request was much narrower. The decision was to bind a _global_ key by default. Gigantic overkill, for the narrow problem raised by the bug report. I agreed (in emacs-devel, when discussed there, and in the bug thread before that) that such wide decisions - wider than the bug thread - should preferably follow wider discussion in emacs-devel. Half of the discussion in emacs-devel was/is about this problem that some big, wide-ranging change gets made in a bug thread, without many eyes seeing it or minds discussing it. That's a problem (IMO - the maintainers disagree). Wrt the actual change made: I objected that, within the last year, first prefix key `C-x p' was taken over, so I changed my code to use `C-x x' instead, and now `C-x x' was also taken over. That's quite a bit to lose in a year. And both changes were made in bug threads - no discussion in emacs-devel. I objected to that, and I still object. It's not I who decide, and that's fine. But my opinion that this isn't a good change, and that such things should be discussed in emacs-devel, remains. I'm not so worried as you about Emacs's "freedom" to bind the keys it wants. Casting this as a question of "freedom" is alarmist and ridiculous, IMO. This is a question about what key-binding conventions we should have, nothing more. > > My proposal is to separate any and all such > > possible default key-binding _changes_ from > > the simple act of declaring the keys so far > > unbound by default to be reserved for > > 3rd-party code. >=20 > That just can't happen, it would be a arbitrary constraint that would > impair Emacs' evolution, it would mean that hundreds of small or large > potential improvements would not be possible anymore. Not at all. It would mean that Emacs would try harder not to add new default key bindings. It's not trying hard enough now - that's the problem. IMO, it's gotten worse lately, when we can least afford it (available keys are scarcer and scarcer). I asked for other solutions to the problem (still asking). And the maintainer's reply was that there is no problem. Yes, you proposed another answer to the problem, and that's fine. It's not as good an answer as mine, IMO, but at least you offered something. > > I would welcome any such support, if that > > really is your intention. >=20 > FWIW, it was indeed really my intention. The proposal is an attempt to > find a reasonable middle ground that would give as much freedom as > possible to Emacs, as much freedom as possible to third-party library > developers, and without changing users' habits too much. That's a good intention, though the ideas that this is about "freedom", and that Emacs needs more "freedom" to add default key bindings, are misguided, IMO. And as I said, by proposing to use a currently bound key for this you increase, not decrease, the contention and argument over which keys Emacs should "lose" to this, and you increase, not decrease, the need for users to change habits.