From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: [External] : Re: PROPOSAL: Repurpose one key and reserve it for third-party packages Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 20:52:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7e12c1c3c1aae58993e2@heytings.org> <8ed9b43502da52e07ff5@heytings.org> <8ed9b43502576d94a2c8@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35429"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 09 21:53:40 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l9a0y-00098Y-6I for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Tue, 9 Feb 2021 20:52:29 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: PROPOSAL: Repurpose one key and reserve it for third-party packages Thread-Index: AQHW/xkVTfobCYA66k+9hJzMq8Sr16pQRq7A In-Reply-To: <8ed9b43502576d94a2c8@heytings.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: heytings.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;heytings.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 916f43f4-5857-40ac-c223-08d8cd3c9d74 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2429: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:127742 Archived-At: > >> That's not the proposal, that's the way you look at the proposal. > >> The proposal is to free one or two keys, > > > > You clearly said _one_ key, many times. Glad to hear now that it's > > two keys (or at least "1 or 2"). > > > >> and to reserve them for third-party libraries. Freeing one or two > >> keys is (would be) an effort from the viewpoint of Emacs, > > > > Not if they're currently not bound by default. >=20 > I wonder: did you actually read the proposal? Yes. There's no effort needed if all keys not currently bound are explicitly freed from use for default Emacs key bindings. A fortiori, for just one or two of them. Of _them_ - the unbound keys. Of course if keys that are currently bound by default are to be freed up then some adjustment would need to be made. But no effort is needed for keys not yet bound - zero, beyond documenting the fact. By proposing to free up keys already bound, you create more effort than is needed (zero), and you solicit just the kind of back-&-forth objections that have ensued: this key vs that key: Which ones should be freed for 3rd-party code? And what if we switched this and that? Or we did this instead? Or...? The simple answer, as a starting point, is _none_ of those keys. Just free up keys that are not yet taken, just say that Emacs won't take them. Additional discussion about possibly freeing up more keys, which are currently taken, is also welcome, but it should be separate from staking out, now, the currently unbound keys as reserved for 3rd parties. Additional discussion about possibly refactoring Emacs key bindings is also welcome. And there too I've participated. There are repeatable keys whose bindings are currently wasted. There are keys whose commands are not so useful or not so commonly used. There are keys that would be better off used as prefix keys. All of that is ripe terrain for making keys more useful and more available. But all of that entails arguing about _changing_ existing keys, which as you well know is iffy, risky territory. My proposal is to separate any and all such possible default key-binding _changes_ from the simple act of declaring the keys so far unbound by default to be reserved for 3rd-party code. No default keys to relearn or fight over. Just a declaration of a moratorium on using up the remaining virgin keyspace territory. > >> Your proposal, "to reserve _ALL_ keys currently > >> not bound by default", has I fear no chance > >> whatsoever to be adopted. > > > > It certainly has no chance if it's not even > > proposed. And your immediate subsequent > > pull-back proposal hasn't helped. >=20 > I'm sorry to read you've seen it as a pull back. > What I saw was that your request was being ignored, > and I tried to help with something more constructive. I would welcome any such support, if that really is your intention. It took decades just to get `transient-mark-mode' turned on by default. Same thing for `font-lock-mode'. I have no illusions about how difficult change is. But there's no failing like not being willing to propose something just because it looks hard to get passed. There's no failing like giving up without trying.