TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Ognyan Kulev]

Hi,

I made a bulgarian translation[1] of etc/TUTORIAL.  Seeing that you want 
confirmation from another guy speaking the same language I sent a mail 
to <bg-team@bash.info> which is the official mailing list of translation 
team for Bulgaria[2].  The letter was sent on 17 November but there's 
still no response.  What do you want so that the translation be included 
  in Emacs 21.4?

I don't know if cp1251 coding system must be used or windows-1251.  What 
is the canonical name in Emacs?

BTW In CVS HEAD etc/TUTORIAL there is a typo in line 609 (C-b TUTORIAL 
must be C-x C-b TUTORIAL) and a missing formatting space in line 997.

[1] http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~ogi/TUTORIAL.bg
[2] http://www2.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard/po/registry.cgi?team=bg

Regards
-- 
Ognyan Kulev <ogi@fmi.uni-sofia.bg>, "\"Programmer\""

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Richard Stallman]

      What do you want so that the translation be included 
      in Emacs 21.4?

If you sign the usual legal papers, we will put it in.

    I don't know if cp1251 coding system must be used or windows-1251.  What 
    is the canonical name in Emacs?

You shouldn't use a window-specific coding system for files in Emacs.
Isn't there a standard coding system that works for Bulgarian?

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Richard Stallman wrote:

> You shouldn't use a window-specific coding system for files in Emacs.
> Isn't there a standard coding system that works for Bulgarian?

I think cp1251 is that standard encoding.

We could use another Cyrillic encoding if we don't want cp1251, but we 
must make sure it will be displayed correctly with fonts that are widely 
available on Bulgarian users' machines.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Richard Stallman]

    > You shouldn't use a window-specific coding system for files in Emacs.
    > Isn't there a standard coding system that works for Bulgarian?

    I think cp1251 is that standard encoding.

Really?  I thought that cp1251 was a Microsoft-specific
encoding.  Isn't there some other standard for Cyrillic
alphabets?

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Richard Stallman wrote:

>     > You shouldn't use a window-specific coding system for files in Emacs.
>     > Isn't there a standard coding system that works for Bulgarian?
> 
>     I think cp1251 is that standard encoding.
> 
> Really?  I thought that cp1251 was a Microsoft-specific
> encoding.  Isn't there some other standard for Cyrillic
> alphabets?

There is, more than one, actually.  We have KOI8 and ISO-8859-5, for 
starters.

However, the de-facto standard for encoding Bulgarian text is another 
matter.  AFAIR, cp1251 is it.  But since it's only my memory, and it had 
failed me more than once, I will now shut up and let more knowledgeable 
people to chime in.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Richard Stallman]

    There is, more than one, actually.  We have KOI8 and ISO-8859-5, for 
    starters.

    However, the de-facto standard for encoding Bulgarian text is another 
    matter.  AFAIR, cp1251 is it.

Does cp1251 work on GNU without the need to do anything special?  If
so, it is ok to use it for TUTORIAL.bg.  Otherwise we should use KOI8
or ISO-8859-5.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:15:05 -0500
> 
> Does cp1251 work on GNU without the need to do anything special?

AFAIK, it does.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Richard Stallman]

    > Does cp1251 work on GNU without the need to do anything special?

    AFAIK, it does.

Ok, I guess we can use it.

As soon as I know the papers have arrived, we can install this translation.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Ognyan Kulev]

Richard Stallman wrote:

>     > Does cp1251 work on GNU without the need to do anything special?
>
>     AFAIK, it does.
>
> Ok, I guess we can use it.

Unfortunately using cp1251 requires eval: in Local Variables and this is 
not good for an Emacs tutorial.  (You are asked if you want to eval 
potentially dangerous expression.)  I think the best solution is to use 
koi8-r and that's the case in TUTORIAL.bg's new upload[1].

> As soon as I know the papers have arrived, we can install this 
> translation.

The assignment is accepted by FSF about June-July--I mention this to 
help finding it :-)

BTW Don't forget the tiny typo in CVS TUTORIAL[2], lines 609 and 997.

[1] http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~ogi/TUTORIAL.bg
[2] http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/emacs-devel/2002-November/014341.html

Regards
-- 
Ognyan Kulev <ogi@fmi.uni-sofia.bg>, "\"Programmer\""

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, Ognyan Kulev wrote:

> Unfortunately using cp1251 requires eval: in Local Variables and this is 
> not good for an Emacs tutorial.  (You are asked if you want to eval 
> potentially dangerous expression.)  I think the best solution is to use 
> koi8-r and that's the case in TUTORIAL.bg's new upload[1].

If KOI8-R is okay for Bulgarian users, it's indeed a better choice.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Richard Stallman]

    The assignment is accepted by FSF about June-July--I mention this to 
    help finding it :-)

Yes, I see them.  Thanks.

If you could re-encode the file in a better choice of coding system,
then I will install it.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Ognyan Kulev]

Richard Stallman wrote:
>     The assignment is accepted by FSF about June-July--I mention this to 
>     help finding it :-)
> 
> Yes, I see them.  Thanks.
> 
> If you could re-encode the file in a better choice of coding system,
> then I will install it.

It uses koi8-r encoding now[1].

[1] http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~ogi/TUTORIAL.bg

Regards
-- 
Ognyan Kulev <ogi@fmi.uni-sofia.bg>, "\"Programmer\""

Re: TUTORIAL.bg and typo in TUTORIAL

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Ognyan Kulev wrote:

> I made a bulgarian translation[1] of etc/TUTORIAL.

Thanks.

> I don't know if cp1251 coding system must be used or windows-1251.  What 
> is the canonical name in Emacs?

It doesn't matter in Emacs, but I think windows-1251 is the official IANA 
name for that encoding.

However, please note that you must put (codepage-setup "1251") in the 
Local Vars section of the file, otherwise people who don't have their 
defaults set to cp1251 will not be able to read the file correctly 
because codepages are not set up until you explicitly do so.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg

[Ognyan Kulev]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> However, please note that you must put (codepage-setup "1251") in the 
> Local Vars section of the file, otherwise people who don't have their 
> defaults set to cp1251 will not be able to read the file correctly 
> because codepages are not set up until you explicitly do so.

The reason I asked about cp1251 or windows-1251 is that 
emacs/lisp/language/cyrillic.el uses windows-1251 for Bulgarian and 
other language environments.  (See at the end of the file in CVS HEAD 
Emacs.)  There are some `(features code-pages)' that I don't understand 
well.  The standard name is windows-1251[1] so I prefer windows-1251.

I added `eval: (codepage-setup 1251)' before `coding: cp1251' but it 
doesn't work the first time.  Next time I load TUTORIAL.bg (in the same 
Emacs session) it is loaded correctly.

BTW I've signed papers for bulgarian.el and all future changes.

[1] http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets

Regards
--
Ognyan Kulev <ogi@fmi.uni-sofia.bg>, "\"Programmer\""

Re: TUTORIAL.bg

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Ognyan Kulev wrote:

> I added `eval: (codepage-setup 1251)' before `coding: cp1251' but it 
> doesn't work the first time.  Next time I load TUTORIAL.bg (in the same 
> Emacs session) it is loaded correctly.

I'm guessing that Emacs processes coding: tags before it processes 
`eval:'.  So perhaps you will need to use something equivalent to coding: 
but inside `eval:'.

Re: TUTORIAL.bg

[Richard Stallman]

    > However, please note that you must put (codepage-setup "1251") in the 
    > Local Vars section of the file, otherwise people who don't have their 
    > defaults set to cp1251 will not be able to read the file correctly 
    > because codepages are not set up until you explicitly do so.

That sounds like a very good reason NOT to store this file
in coding system cp1251.

I asked

    Does cp1251 work on GNU without the need to do anything special?

and you said yes, but this information suggests the real answer is no.
It is necessary to do something special, to call codepage-setup, to
make it work.

If cp1251 is the de-facto standard coding system for Bulgarian,
perhaps we should put its definition into a standardly-loaded file, so
that nothing special is needed to use it.  Is that feasible?

Otherwise we should store this file in some other coding system.

Why do you think the choice of coding system would affect whether
people can display the fonts?  The general idea of Mule coding systems
is that you get the same characters in the buffer regardless of
which coding system you use.