From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Vincent_Bela=EFche?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Where to contribute manual translations ? (Re: Emacs-devel Digest, Vol 238, Issue 29) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 22:58:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <838r5d7bcc.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_PAXP192MB16085595A006D9F71B18398C849DAPAXP192MB1608EURP_" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1926"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" To: Jean-Christophe Helary , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 29 23:59:38 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rJLpJ-0000I9-4S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 23:59:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rJLoP-0006EQ-Cl; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:58:41 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rJLoN-0006EH-Ns for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:58:39 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-db5eur02olkn2089.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.50.89] helo=EUR02-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rJLoE-0006zu-Qh; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 17:58:39 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=NxBtZbTm7I6vPgaW3vVpoiiJZ34jnNeRSnsJTvdcRrkIQSZ96SsNCeZBJMYpJMPcDUy/HdS8MP/w2O/z7GKeQtS51zSq5WBWu/aSGGZj20p6HqPlz7sMBMd9EY+pXto71x4aYcC6pff8J0suO0gC65aMrgULocbehzRu868UevF69bgHfWmgAC+1V1RKTqGCR3b9nlj2kreoK7VMjgyBa1cHHC3ntQgoUK95rPAkNV5kSmHv5qwSuR5NgsIDs2OJE6FwyhJ4ryEf2va5peGAJT+5mc85a63AapOtbk5E5CMC/tzfreZ1UmWP66zGHvuMx9u1ljEBHW37tdfRbhnUiA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=/fJQ4SeVviDGxkFcjUJFI3iv1geUjf8Cvrt9gB3+Yg8=; b=GePWlMJmTPRnhVOFJrxzodelCLvrm6/p3qPOX0MOBN/ajCE+omGmF7ePMOfhl6Tqt2fo3Ul8rV1QnJV+doKaPc1LMoSLnS1XSQZ63p8dr4ahd3i6UkcSatZbqmTDf3FJyi0KTrAWfQBY7VUU1VbOVzKQH2Z5UzmRXzi4rj0umZcY29uF68vpWsHPdRmBuFMo/vvx+kTL9Me3ikdxEranSb71Ed5srdJI6AyZgmtPwrtQ2zBonyT0a1OpeW1umfGfcnaG5oWvxI1MDZZkL1/GvWZHKevt7+O+ACf6ARvMGwx3aHosH80v1YkXCNBo2sX77sJp8sfHw9EJ9k2LlTgBag== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none Original-Received: from PAXP192MB1608.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:102:28c::22) by AS8P192MB1399.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:20b:3c2::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7135.22; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 22:58:26 +0000 Original-Received: from PAXP192MB1608.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::fee7:9deb:373a:4055]) by PAXP192MB1608.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::fee7:9deb:373a:4055%7]) with mapi id 15.20.7135.019; Fri, 29 Dec 2023 22:58:26 +0000 Thread-Topic: Where to contribute manual translations ? 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314346 Archived-At: --_000_PAXP192MB16085595A006D9F71B18398C849DAPAXP192MB1608EURP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jean-Christophe, I had a look at your git repo, and I also watched your presentation about O= megaT. I realize that all the manual translations that you have are po file= s that are output by OmegaT as a sequence of individual segment translation= s. I understand that some tool will then reassemble those segment to rebuil= d the Texinfo file, that can then be compiled to the usuer manuel. My translation of SES manual to French is a =AB hand-made =BB translation (= as opposed to computer-aided), so it is a plain Texinfo file which I direct= ly edited with an editor (it was Emacs, but any editor, and even MSWord use= d as a text editor could have been used). Therefore I am not sure that your= repo is the best place for me. For the time being I will therefore have it= on the Emacs repo, when the conversation here converges on the right place= and name. I don't know how you can get my translation and use it in your OmegaT frame= work as the splitting into segments + segment naming is not done. Also, I a= m not sure that I want to install and learn how to use OmegaT, as I am not = a professional translator, and my aim was not so much as to produce a trans= lation (although I have no doubt that it will be useful), but the side prod= ucts of translating, that is improve the manual quality and my knowledge an= d understanding. That is the same reason for which I translated to French t= he Unofficial LaTeX manual, that allowed plenty of minor improvements on th= e manual (both English & French versions). Vincent. ________________________________ De : Jean-Christophe Helary Envoy=E9 : vendredi 29 d=E9cembre 2023 15:21 =C0 : Eli Zaretskii Cc : emacs-devel@gnu.org ; vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr ; stefankangas@gmail.com Objet : Re: Where to contribute manual translations ? (Re: Emacs-devel Dige= st, Vol 238, Issue 29) > On Dec 29, 2023, at 15:48, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 01:23:40 +0000 >> From: Jean-Christophe Helary >> Cc: vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, stefankangas@gmail.com, eliz@gnu.org >> >>>> Another question : how to internationalize docstrings ? IMHO it would >>>> be great if the docstring could have some info manual anchor in it, an= d >>>> one could display it from the currently selected language manual. >>>> Besides, reading docstring from manual via some anchor is basically >>>> what Calc does with some kitchen tricks. >> Eli answered that. >> There is also a different issue, that comes before translation, it is >> fixing user facing strings, so that they can eventually be translated >> one day. I also made a presentation on that at EmacsConf 2022: >> https://emacsconf.org/2022/talks/localizing/ > > I believe this issue was also raised in the discussions whose pointers > I provided. You=92re correct. > AFAIR, this issue is a much harder one, since manipulating such strings > is pervasive in Emacs, and mostly in Lisp, not in C. My experience with package.el, as I suggested in the presentation, is that knowledge of Emacs Lisp can be obtained while checking the strings. There are not that many functions that act on strings, so it=92s relatively easy to see what=92s going on in the code and how the strings are produced. The slightly more difficult part is to fix the strings so that even if there is a little redundancy, there are not smart tricks on language =93objects=94 (like =93concatenate an s if such variable is bigger than 1= =94), because that involves writing some real and correct elisp :) But it=92s a fun and very practical way to learn some parts of Elisp. As for creating a process for actually localizing the strings and displaying them in the locale language, you are right to say that we concluded that it was a much harder issue, since we=92d have to come up with a lisp-specific system, if my memory is correct. -- Jean-Christophe Helary @jchelary@emacs.ch https://traductaire-libre.org https://mac4translators.blogspot.com https://sr.ht/~brandelune/omegat-as-a-book/ --_000_PAXP192MB16085595A006D9F71B18398C849DAPAXP192MB1608EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Jean-Christophe,

I had a look at your git repo, and I also watched your presentation about O= megaT. I realize that all the manual translations that you have are po file= s that are output by OmegaT as a sequence of individual segment translation= s. I understand that some tool will then reassemble those segment to rebuild the Texinfo file, that can then b= e compiled to the usuer manuel.

My translation of SES manual to French is a =AB hand-made =BB translation (= as opposed to computer-aided), so it is a plain Texinfo file which I direct= ly edited with an editor (it was Emacs, but any editor, and even MSWord use= d as a text editor could have been used). Therefore I am not sure that your repo is the best place for me. For the t= ime being I will therefore have it on the Emacs repo, when the conversation= here converges on the right place and name.

I don't know how you can get my translation and use it in your OmegaT frame= work as the splitting into segments + segment naming is not done. Also, I a= m not sure that I want to install and learn how to use OmegaT, as I am not = a professional translator, and my aim was not so much as to produce a translation (although I have no doubt = that it will be useful), but the side products of translating, that is impr= ove the manual quality and my knowledge and understanding. That is the same= reason for which I translated to French the Unofficial LaTeX manual, that allowed plenty of minor improveme= nts on the manual (both English & French versions).

   Vincent.
De : Jean-Christophe Helary= <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 29 d=E9cembre 2023 15:21
=C0 : Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc : emacs-devel@gnu.org <emacs-devel@gnu.org>; vincent.b= .1@hotmail.fr <vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr>; stefankangas@gmail.com <st= efankangas@gmail.com>
Objet : Re: Where to contribute manual translations ? (Re: Emacs-dev= el Digest, Vol 238, Issue 29)
 


> On Dec 29, 2023, at 15:48, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: >
>> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 01:23:40 +0000
>> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductair= e-libre.org>
>> Cc: vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, stefankangas@gmail.com, eliz@gnu.org >>
>>>> Another question : how to internationalize docstrings ? IM= HO it would
>>>> be great if the docstring could have some info manual anch= or in it, and
>>>> one could display it from the currently selected language = manual.
>>>> Besides, reading docstring from manual via some anchor is = basically
>>>> what Calc does with some kitchen tricks.

>> Eli answered that.

>> There is also a different issue, that comes before translation, it= is
>> fixing user facing strings, so that they can eventually be transla= ted
>> one day. I also made a presentation on that at EmacsConf 2022:
>> https://e= macsconf.org/2022/talks/localizing/
>
> I believe this issue was also raised in the discussions whose pointers=
> I provided.

You=92re correct.

> AFAIR, this issue is a much harder one, since manipulating such string= s
> is pervasive in Emacs, and mostly in Lisp, not in C.

My experience with package.el, as I suggested in the presentation, is
that knowledge of Emacs Lisp can be obtained while checking the
strings. There are not that many functions that act on strings, so it=92s relatively easy to see what=92s going on in the code and how the strings are produced.

The slightly more difficult part is to fix the strings so that even if
there is a little redundancy, there are not smart tricks on language
=93objects=94 (like =93concatenate an s if such variable is bigger than 1= =94),
because that involves writing some real and correct elisp :)

But it=92s a fun and very practical way to learn some parts of Elisp.

As for creating a process for actually localizing the strings and
displaying them in the locale language, you are right to say that we
concluded that it was a much harder issue, since we=92d have to come up
with a lisp-specific system, if my memory is correct.

--
Jean-Christophe Helary @jchelary@emacs.ch
https://traductaire-libre.org=
https://mac4translators.bl= ogspot.com
https://sr.ht/~bran= delune/omegat-as-a-book/

--_000_PAXP192MB16085595A006D9F71B18398C849DAPAXP192MB1608EURP_--