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* Re: Adding use-package to core
@ 2022-11-13 16:11 xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
  2022-11-13 16:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions. @ 2022-11-13 16:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: eliz; +Cc: emacs-devel

From: 	Eli Zaretskii
Subject: 	Re: Adding use-package to core
Date: 	Sun, 13 Nov 2022 09:31:11 +0200
> I don't share Stefan's fears.  If the only issue with moving
> use-package to core is that someone must step forward to take the
> responsibility for maintaining it, I think we can move it into core
> without fear.  I see no reason for making a dedicated maintainer for
> use-package a prerequisite for importing it, given what John says
> about its stability.  It's a non-issue.

Why don't you?  This package has been very popular for a long time and
at least I haven't seen anyone complain about it not being in core.
Whatever gets included seem to freeze in time and becomes very hard to
make non-breaking changes, and their writers probably get frustrated
from that more easily and stop developing it.  There's ever more lines of
code and more packages, I don't think this direction is sustainable and
I hope you will reconsider this approach of adding everything to core
at some point.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding use-package to core
@ 2022-11-18  0:32 Payas Relekar
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-11-18  0:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, philipk, monnier, emacs-devel

John Wiegley <johnw@gnu.org> writes:

>>>>>> Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Eglot is still being maintained by João, while use-package cannot expect
>> such commitment from John. If Stefan or anyone is willing to volunteer, we
>> can continue addressing issues/PRs on both Github as well as mailing list,
>> but it must be a commitment at least until the repo is archived.
>
> I'm definitely willing to continue working with Stefan, he's making
> considerable progress already on our outstanding issue list. Having an active
> collaborator makes it easier to shift some of my time around, since I'm better
> at being interrupt driven than scheduling time in advance. So don't count out
> me out entirely just yet. :)

That is quite nice to hear :)

Perhaps keeping the repo active will work out better than I had thought before.
--



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding use-package to core
@ 2022-11-16 15:29 Payas Relekar
  2022-11-16 16:04 ` Philip Kaludercic
  2022-11-16 16:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-11-16 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: philipk, stefankangas, johnw, monnier, emacs-devel

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com>
>
>> Once it is merged and ELPA starts tracking use-package from core,
>> we should probably ask John to mark the repo as archived on Github as an
>> added incentive to direct people to emacs-devel as well as prevent
>> people from creating new bugs/PRs on Github. Does that sound like a good
>> idea?
>
> Yes, I think so.

This is thinking ahead, but we'll want to think about existing open
issues and PRs before making repo archived.
--



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding use-package to core
@ 2022-11-16 14:18 Payas Relekar
  2022-11-16 14:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
  2022-11-16 19:35 ` John Wiegley
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-11-16 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: philipk, stefankangas, johnw, monnier, emacs-devel

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,  John Wiegley <johnw@gnu.org>,
>>  Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,  emacs-devel
>>  <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 13:58:59 +0530
>>
>> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>>
>> > At the very least there should be a note indicating that use-package is
>> > not being developed on GitHub any more, and that bug reports or patches
>> > should be sent to emacs-devel.
>>
>> Once use-package is in the core, I can send a PR to update README to
>> point to documentation on ELPA as well as instructions to send
>> patches/bug reports to emacs-devel.
>
> If use-package is in core, why should the link to its documentation
> point to ELPA and not to some place in core?

Either is fine, if I know what that link would be, I'll make PR with
that.

Once it is merged and ELPA starts tracking use-package from core,
we should probably ask John to mark the repo as archived on Github as an
added incentive to direct people to emacs-devel as well as prevent
people from creating new bugs/PRs on Github. Does that sound like a good
idea?

--



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding use-package to core
@ 2022-11-16  8:28 Payas Relekar
  2022-11-16  9:30 ` Stefan Kangas
  2022-11-16 13:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-11-16  8:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Philip Kaludercic
  Cc: Stefan Kangas, John Wiegley, Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> At the very least there should be a note indicating that use-package is
> not being developed on GitHub any more, and that bug reports or patches
> should be sent to emacs-devel.

Once use-package is in the core, I can send a PR to update README to
point to documentation on ELPA as well as instructions to send
patches/bug reports to emacs-devel.

I can probably prepare a draft PR later today or early tomorrow, just to
get this out of the way.
--



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding use-package to core
@ 2022-11-13 11:55 Payas Relekar
  2022-11-13 17:31 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
  2022-11-13 18:24 ` John Wiegley
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-11-13 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.; +Cc: eliz, xenodasein

xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
writes:

>> I don't share Stefan's fears.  If the only issue with moving
>> use-package to core is that someone must step forward to take the
>> responsibility for maintaining it, I think we can move it into core
>> without fear.  I see no reason for making a dedicated maintainer for
>> use-package a prerequisite for importing it, given what John says
>> about its stability.  It's a non-issue.
>
> Why don't you?  This package has been very popular for a long time and
> at least I haven't seen anyone complain about it not being in core.
> Whatever gets included seem to freeze in time and becomes very hard to
> make non-breaking changes, and their writers probably get frustrated
> from that more easily and stop developing it.  There's ever more lines of
> code and more packages, I don't think this direction is sustainable and
> I hope you will reconsider this approach of adding everything to core
> at some point.

While Eli can speak for maintainers' perspective, here's my personal
observations:

It depends on package. Org-mode and modus-themes have only benefitted
from being included in core and their development pace has kept up if
not improved. Eglot progress may be harder to gauge, but at least in my
personal observation, it hasn't reduced.

As for use-package,
1. The package has been stable and working without many complaints for a
lot of people (myself included) for a long time. For all intents and
purposes it can be declared "done" (a.k.a. frozen) and not many will
complain.

2. John has already mentioned that he is willing to hand-over maintains
to whoever steps up to the job, and if they want to do it in core,
that's how it will be. He has also mentioned that he doesn't have
sufficient bandwidth to spend on future development of use-package hence
the former statement.

3. Considering the adoption of use-package in wider Emacs userbase, I'd
say it is already near impossible to make breaking changes. Moving to
core only makes that process more formal with decade long deprecation
policy.

4. If you need someone to complain about use-package not being in core,
you can count this mail as first. When I started out with Emacs in 2020,
use-package was already recommended way in half the packages I found,
and installing it required adding MELPA. Depending on where you stand
with technical and ethical grounds, this is already not ideal. Less
elisp needed to be understood by newbies (even if one-line MELPA
addition) the better.

5. While as a developer I agree that more code means more maintenance
burden, we are not here to reduce development burden. Only code that is
maintenance free is one that is never written, after all. However, Emacs
is there to serve the needs of users. IME declarative configuration that
use-package provides is so clearly supersior to current imperative
manner that it is worth adding more code, especially if this new code is
as battle tested as use-package is.

6. As for your last point, Emacs is not Python. One of the things I
really really like about Emacs is, even if I never install a single
package, the stock setup gives me a LOT of stuff built-in. While my
personal Emacs is riced to the brim, at work I use plain Emacs with very
very little customization (11 lines in init.el) and it does the job.

Perhaps these points can change your point of opinion. Feel free to
correct wherever necessary.

Thanks,
Payas

--



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: Adding use-package to core
@ 2022-11-13  7:14 Payas Relekar
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-11-13  7:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Philip Kaludercic
  Cc: Stefan Kangas, John Wiegley, Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> John Wiegley <johnw@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> I'm entirely in support of the code and its development moving directly into
>>> core. Whichever best supports the Emacs developers and the needs of the
>>> community, since it is more than likely that future work will be carried out
>>> by others. I'm ready to hand it off in whatever way is desired by the team
>>> here.
>>
>> IMHO, for that to make sense, someone capable would have to volunteer to
>> maintain it on our side.  If we don't have such a volunteer, it makes
>> more sense to me to keep development external for now.

I would like to volunteer for maintaining use-package in core or even
outside, but my current skill-level and time availability restrict in
making a commitment. However, that was always my intention when starting
this discussion. Keeping development out of tree is a good middle
ground.

>> If we see a need to move development fully into core in the future, we
>> can always do that, but the reverse is harder.
>
> I agree, a transitory stage where use-package is still maintained
> externally sounds like the safer bet for now.
>
>> (If we want to preserve history when making such a move at a later date,
>> we could just delete our existing copy of the file from emacs.git and
>> then merge the full git history, just as we did with eglot.el.)
>
> In that case, what is left is completing the .texi manual, or am I
> mistaken?  After that, I suppose that placing the right files in the
> right places in emacs.git will be less that a days work.

IIUC, yes. Completing the manual and placing the files should be all
that is needed. As mentioned before, use-package has been widely
used/tested and has been fairly stable. There should be very few
surprises expected even if we aim for 29.1.

--



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: [ELPA] New package: use-package
@ 2022-10-25 12:06 Payas Relekar
       [not found] ` <877d0kbkfm.fsf@gmail.com>
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-10-25 12:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel; +Cc: John Wiegley

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 96 bytes --]

Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:

Somehow Gmail removed the patch. Attached now.


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: 0001-elpa-packages-use-package-New-package.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 1564 bytes --]

From c96ca180028faaada941129d603c715965e471ad Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 10:51:57 +0530
Subject: [PATCH] elpa-packages (use-package): New package

---
 elpa-packages | 14 ++++++--------
 1 file changed, 6 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)

diff --git a/elpa-packages b/elpa-packages
index afd9b1a528..4f1a86d6a8 100644
--- a/elpa-packages
+++ b/elpa-packages
@@ -86,9 +86,6 @@
   :auto-sync nil)
  ("beacon"		:url "https://github.com/Malabarba/beacon"
   :auto-sync t)
- ;;("bind-key"         :url "https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package"
- ;; :ignored-files ("LICENSE" "doc" "Makefile*" "bind-chords.el" "use-package*")
- ;; :auto-sync t)
  ("blist"		:url "https://gitlab.com/mmemmew/blist"
   :doc "blist.texinfo"
   :readme "README.org"
@@ -739,11 +736,12 @@
   :readme "README.md")
  ("uniquify-files"	:url nil)
  ("url-http-ntlm" 	:url nil)
- ;;("use-package"		:url "https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package"
- ;; :ignored-files ("LICENSE" "bind-*" "use-package-chords.el")
- ;; :doc "use-package.texi"
- ;; :news "NEWS.md"
- ;; :auto-sync t)
+ ("use-package"	:url "https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package"
+  :auto-sync t
+  :ignored-files ("LICENSE" "bind-*" "use-package-chords.el" "use-package-ensure-system-package.el" ".travis.yml")
+  :readme "README.md"
+  :doc "use-package.texi"
+  :news "NEWS.md")
  ("validate"		:url "https://github.com/Malabarba/validate.el")
  ("valign"		:url "https://github.com/casouri/valign")
  ("vc-backup"		:url "https://git.sr.ht/~pkal/vc-backup"
-- 
2.37.3


^ permalink raw reply related	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-11-19 15:46 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 97+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-11-13 16:11 Adding use-package to core xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-13 16:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-13 17:53   ` John Wiegley
2022-11-13 18:13     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-13 18:45       ` John Wiegley
2022-11-13 18:05 ` Stefan Kangas
     [not found] ` <838rkels13.fsf@gnu.org-NGltIw7----9>
2022-11-13 18:12   ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-13 18:22     ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-13 18:31     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-13 19:19       ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-13 20:08         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-13 18:46     ` John Wiegley
2022-11-13 19:02       ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-13 19:48         ` John Wiegley
2022-11-13 22:03           ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-11-13 22:45             ` North Year
2022-11-13 23:13             ` Matthew Carter
2022-11-14  8:10               ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-14  4:17             ` Tim Cross
2022-11-14  6:02             ` John Wiegley
2022-11-13 20:04         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-14 10:32           ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-14 13:30             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-14  0:27 ` Po Lu
2022-11-14 10:12   ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-14 10:47     ` Po Lu
2022-11-14 11:52       ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-14 12:19         ` Po Lu
2022-11-15 15:39           ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-14 13:54         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-14 14:47           ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-14 17:39             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-15 15:38               ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-15 16:24                 ` Configuration helpers (wad: Adding use-package to core) Stefan Monnier
2022-11-15 19:22                 ` Adding use-package to core Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-18 19:29   ` Sean Whitton
2022-11-18 19:33     ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-18 19:48       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-11-18 19:42     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-18 20:43       ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-19  7:12         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-19  7:33           ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-19  8:04             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-19 10:09               ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-19 10:31                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-19 11:02                   ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-19 11:15                     ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-19 11:58                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-19 12:15                       ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-19 15:28               ` Stefan Monnier
2022-11-19 15:36                 ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-19 15:46                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-19 15:26           ` Stefan Monnier
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-11-18  0:32 Payas Relekar
2022-11-16 15:29 Payas Relekar
2022-11-16 16:04 ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-16 16:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-16 17:01   ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-16 19:29     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-17  0:33       ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-17  6:40         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-17  7:17           ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-17  7:24             ` Payas Relekar
2022-11-17 16:18               ` John Wiegley
2022-11-17  7:33             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-17  7:58               ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-16 14:18 Payas Relekar
2022-11-16 14:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-16 19:35 ` John Wiegley
2022-11-16  8:28 Payas Relekar
2022-11-16  9:30 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-16 13:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-13 11:55 Payas Relekar
2022-11-13 17:31 ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-13 17:40   ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-13 18:05   ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-13 18:42     ` xenodasein--- via Emacs development discussions.
2022-11-13 18:24 ` John Wiegley
2022-11-13  7:14 Payas Relekar
2022-10-25 12:06 [ELPA] New package: use-package Payas Relekar
     [not found] ` <877d0kbkfm.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]   ` <jwv8rl0nmb1.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <875yg4144y.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]       ` <jwvczablieq.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]         ` <87h6zmj451.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]           ` <5EE58F68-8B9E-4DE6-BA20-3A88FFDA6528@posteo.net>
     [not found]             ` <jwvh6zmit8b.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]               ` <871qqkjwjj.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]                 ` <jwvr0ykw2ac.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
2022-11-03 16:42                   ` Payas Relekar
2022-11-03 16:57                     ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-03 16:59                       ` Payas Relekar
2022-11-03 17:15                         ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-04 18:24                           ` John Wiegley
2022-11-04 22:03                             ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-05  8:06                               ` Payas Relekar
2022-11-05  8:33                                 ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-05  8:45                                   ` Payas Relekar
2022-11-05  9:37                                     ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-05 10:13                                       ` Payas Relekar
2022-11-12  5:42                                         ` Adding use-package to core Stefan Kangas
2022-11-12  7:25                                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-12 10:17                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-12 14:04                                               ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-12 15:38                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-12 15:46                                                   ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-12 15:53                                                     ` Payas Relekar
2022-11-12 16:33                                                       ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-13  4:43                                                       ` John Wiegley
2022-11-13  5:25                                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-13  7:07                                                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-13  7:31                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-13 14:09                                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-13 15:22                                                               ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-13 15:42                                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-15 17:25                                                             ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-11-16  4:17                                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-16  7:59                                                                 ` Philip Kaludercic

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