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Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Development Speed Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 01:52:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: Reply-To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28800"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: eliz@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 22 01:53:58 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mzptG-0007KX-CZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 01:53:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55052 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzptE-0007Bs-F3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 19:53:56 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:32920) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzpsH-0005wq-7m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 19:52:57 -0500 Original-Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:49942) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzpsF-0000hp-HL; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 19:52:56 -0500 Original-Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88CF3FA0E57; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 00:52:53 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1640134373; s=s1; d=tutanota.de; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:Sender; bh=FfMaypyEint6TgyuAS7HJaVOFU3rOYjv5ol7VGQ2XYA=; b=ZlISrazN6cSH3Ck2KHLFYgKFJYLbn3UdpfLSd1w54qTd1XTPAEP1gwqFJApVvs7m 4pPPKsazcLqBVMhHha0vkQrsOjZ9XEfBMPcV4RokSKXcw7vrPEPtsCzCcbA5Csc3qHZ hIkNj7399RtvTWytixcoIGNG2SgeTPtBpbk4YanLT8GvwjUC2z3itEzPBkRSH3pIw7s 2LLXTTh47+8Y4Ep74+lR4ZlW5ihb+xj3w0oXEi7J+1Rt6QCyejXeaFzvj82Kssy/gDN /tcUyMUYmbdYpL3SpBkSDNQlldBTrRvVDvv+TBH2ImKx1qBPVE3tTW7DZTTkSJE4hgt W5PopsQ42w== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.162; envelope-from=xenodasein@tutanota.de; helo=w1.tutanota.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:282658 Archived-At: Quoting: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-12/msg02012.ht= ml From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Development Speed Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 16:39:40 +0200 > ... I'm amazed that you think this is a disadvantage in Emacs. But it doesn't work, it returns nil!=C2=A0 Shouldn't it just throw error when called in TUI or just get not bound to it's symbol? > This is a feature: Lisp programs almost never need to know whether > they run on text-mode or GUI displays.=C2=A0 If a Lisp program had to ask > on every step whether the display is TTY or GUI... I think they have to, unless TUI and GUI capabilites of a program are exactly the same, which would be unfortunate.=C2=A0 For example this packag= e https://github.com/tumashu/ivy-posframe only works on and is meaningful for GUI. But: > ... we deliberately implemented most of the GUI features on TTYs: > multiple frames, colors (with transparent translation of X colors), > mouse support, menus and dialogs -- in order to eliminate most of the > differences on the Lisp level. Shouldn't there exist a set of functions that exit for GUI, a set that exist for TUI, and as their intersection a set of interface-agnostic functions?=C2=A0 Things you mentioned mostly live in the intersection anyway. > ... One of the worst "surprises" when > building a new version of a package is to find out it no longer > supports your compiler/linker/libraries... If a system has internet connection and is able to run the latest Emacs, shouldn't it be able to get a reasonably recent GCC?=C2=A0 Asking for my ow= n education, feel free to pass... > We are not talking about platforms, we are talking about GNU/Linux > systems that still use old GCC versions.=C2=A0 There are quite a lot of > those... Quoting: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-12/msg02014.ht= ml From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Development Speed Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 16:48:47 +0200 > Why is that?=C2=A0 We are talking about a project most of whose codebase = is > extremely stable and proven by many years of use.=C2=A0 What could possib= ly > new compilers give us except destabilize the code (due to bugs in > early implementations of new standards)? I don't know how bad the situation is but I feel like I mentioned C++20 and not C11? GCC is the backbone of GNU and C11 was implemented in it like 10 years ago IIRC. Compiling Emacs 29 (assuming it is C11, which I don't think it will or should) on a system system without C11 sounds, rather unusual?=C2=A0 There is always 28.=C2=A0 I am certainly not an autho= rity on this subject, maybe there exists something like the "Steam Hardware Survey" but for GNU/GCC?