From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Changed outside --> set, in Customize UI Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:04:04 -0800 Message-ID: References: <874qgoo4j7.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1107800032 533 80.91.229.2 (7 Feb 2005 18:13:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:13:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 07 19:13:52 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyDOM-000585-KY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:13:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyDcX-00015Z-4U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:28:25 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CyDbt-0000t1-Kr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:27:47 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CyDbl-0000n7-EY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:27:40 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyDbf-0000gn-R6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:27:31 -0500 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.230] (helo=agminet03.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1CyDF4-0001oL-J0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:04:10 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet03.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j17I49Fv007743; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:04:09 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.50]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j17I48WM007707; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:04:08 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j17I47Q8003268; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:04:07 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dradams-lap.us.oracle.com [130.35.177.126]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j17I44S5003254 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:04:07 -0700 Original-To: "Stefan Monnier" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <874qgoo4j7.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:33030 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:33030 > One problem mentioned is that trying to save a "changed-outside" > option might not "work": some library you load might change the saved > value to something different after you restart. Well, _setting_ an > option in Customize and then saving it might not work either - for > exactly the same reason. If users think they can rely on _not_ seeing > a changed-outside "warning", then they are misled. If you see a > changed-outside warning, beware; if you don't see such a warning, > beware. This is a distinction without a distinction. Nice theory, but in practice there is a big difference, because in most cases the "changes outside customize" either always take place or never take place, so it's a rare occurrence when the problem you mention shows up. If, today, most "changes outside customize" occur systematically, that is because most represent _bugs_: libraries that are diddling user options when they shouldn't. In the future, I expect that most such outside changes will be made by users using other ways than Customize (extensions of Customize, essentially) to change values. Users will set options in various ways and they will see that "Set" status correctly reflected in Customize. Changes to user options should be _user_ changes, and, as such they will not be systematic, no matter how they are made. When a user wants to make a change systematic, Save (or Standard) is used. And even if it does show up, taking a look at the customize buffer when you see the problem will tell you "changed outside customize" warning you of the problem. What is the problem you are trying to solve, really? I.e. in what way is the message "changed outside customize" a problem? Come on, you can't have it both ways. Either "changed outside customize" is valuable because it is effective in warning users about disastrous problems, or it is harmless (might not help but doesn't hurt), has no effect, and means nothing. Which do you want to claim? I maintain that it is 1) confusing, 2) ineffective in preventing or dealing with the problems mentioned, and 3) a meaningless distinction from Set. A meaningless distinction is not harmless, because it confuses users. Occam says, "Get rid of it." Setting an option is setting an option, no matter how or where it is done. And users should be the ones setting user options, so, yes, the bugs need to be fixed. Again - so far, I have seen no argument as to why the UI distinction should be kept. So far, all of the arguments have involved reference to existing problems that are independent of the proposed UI change. IOW, turn your question around: In what way is using Set instead of Changed Outside Customize a problem? How about an argument justifying the distinction, to stave off Occam and his nasty razor?