From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: suggestions on toolbar icons Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:16:42 -0800 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111167071 5200 80.91.229.2 (18 Mar 2005 17:31:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:31:11 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 18 18:31:10 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCLIP-0002c4-Rg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:30:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCLYw-0001Yo-Oz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:47:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DCLYJ-0001KL-VR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:46:29 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DCLYD-0001Gk-VD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:46:22 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DCLYD-0001Dc-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:46:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1DCLDv-0000Ap-J9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:25:23 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id j2IHPMgf029568 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:25:22 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.49]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id j2IHGjlX022214 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:19:52 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j2IHGjoJ001042 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:16:45 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-82-246.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.82.246]) by rgmsgw300.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j2IHGiEN001034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:16:44 -0700 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:34727 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:34727 Man, you start out implying you don't want to start an argument and yet fill your message up with this sort of crap. You clearly don't like Gnome -- and I certainly have my own long list of complaints about it -- but please save the anti-Gnome rants for some other list. So I'm a Gnome-hater now? And a Microsoft pusher? Ad hominem ad nauseum. For the record: 1. I have nothing against Gnome. I have never seen or used Gnome. I had hardly heard of Gnome before Jan's email; I did not know that Emacs was using Gnome icons; and I did not know that Gnome had a set of generic icons. I stated explicitly that aligning Emacs with Gnome was fine, in principle. I mentioned that I agreed with the idea of using generic icons that can change appearance automatically - that's very good - I mentioned that I wasn't aware of that possibility. I pointed out a few places where Gnome icons _agreed_ with what I was suggesting (versus what is now in Emacs). I (and Lennart) suggested using some Gnome icons that are not used now, and I suggested using some of the Gnome icons differently. 2. I do use Windows now in my work, as well as GNU/Linux (remotely - xterm only). I am not particularly a fan of Microsoft as a company, and I don't think Microsoft UIs are always great - far from it. I think free software as a movement is great, and Microsoft as a movement is not. But that does not mean that everything GNU is the best there is, that there is no room for improvement, or that inspiration for such improvement cannot come even from the likes of Microsoft or other devils. It so happens that none of my suggestions on icons were inspired by Microsoft products (to my knowledge), but so what if they had been? It is silly (counter-productive) to circle the wagons each time you think someone has mentioned something happening outside the cult. "Burn the heretic!" will eventually leave you with few of the faithful left to burn. 3. I don't even use the toolbar - I just happened to open a recent Emacs and came across what I felt were not-the-most-helpful icons. I sent along some ideas for improvement, with no particular expectation that any one of them might be adopted. In several cases I gave alternative suggestions - the suggestions were obviously intended as food for thought, as possible minor improvements. The response was, essentially: 1) Gnome doesn't allow/provide this, and 2) where allowed/provided, it conflicts with the legacy Emacs icons. End of story.