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Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 20:28:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <87lflcg0k9.fsf@red-bean.com> <0f1cd319-fa8c-4453-b909-fdd36f337906@default> <87zh9scdf8.fsf@warpmail.net> <24271.60155.724466.802235@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> <877dwwezfr.fsf@red-bean.com-M8RLd3p--3-2> Reply-To: excalamus@tutanota.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="22467"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "T.V Raman" , Richard Stallman , Andreas Roehler , Emacs Devel , "Philip K." , Drew Adams To: Karl Fogel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 28 20:29:09 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jeNHA-0005jH-VJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 20:29:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42156 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeNHA-0003Vn-1w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 14:29:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59730) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeNGN-0002jo-Bp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 14:28:19 -0400 Original-Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:52064) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeNGL-0002Zf-A1; Thu, 28 May 2020 14:28:18 -0400 Original-Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56BACFA0573; Thu, 28 May 2020 18:28:14 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1590690494; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=/FhDLC8nuhiFm0C83fqBPNEoWquuNkewvDbL/JSF99U=; b=0C0wmxL93jkIWsom6YRGileRiyFJUDAQRDhfDQbCU76GEOxwN9wLemmKlmUCO65Q ioEIaAz7XZV8Amp5TuAWtPKPXvL8uCVW1PfGivaWZaWtCMcK6f8Dl4+uzLNqaibyQrN BOoLrFu/7fVJ2N09EgZBQPJb1wawdmVV+AMDdTKeaHWTeyVz61yRFWh+usrKISkQ3H0 ned/uxwQGb3x0sNyhvEAXZdajwcdzxmUuwfGccGbBUB6TFZ6Mfa3hYAc4ldxWm8kfnv SpxoLBY7LsrOqBIHr4RKUXpGSZ37JYkmKo+0upGkn32fR75gzMkeUfiEgDepRe52OkG EqZtRT4rUA== In-Reply-To: <877dwwezfr.fsf@red-bean.com-M8RLd3p--3-2> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.162; envelope-from=excalamus@tutanota.com; helo=w1.tutanota.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/28 14:28:14 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251571 Archived-At: May 28, 2020, 13:34 by kfogel@red-bean.com: > On 28 May 2020, T.V Raman wrote: > >emacs kbd commands -- and other well-designed ergonomic systems, eg > >vi's h,j,k,l for navigation are better thought of as muscle > >memory. The mnemonics are useful to learn, yes, but given the weird > >layout of the qwerty keyboard, rigidly sticking to mnemonics often > >leads to non-ergonomic keybindings. > > Amen to what T.V. says here. > > Often, when people say that keybindings should be "intuitive", they mean = something like "there should be some connection between a plausible English= -language description of what the keybinding does and the letters involved = in the keybinding itself". > > But such language/key associations are only useful to newcomers anyway. = After all, there is nothing about the word "quit" that inherently suggests = its meaning -- it's just that those who have learned English have learned w= hat that word means. Similarly, those who have learned the language of Ema= cs know that C-g means the same thing (well, something very similar). > > Even independently of keyboard layout (mine is not QWERTY) this kind of i= ntuitiveness is of questionable value. It *does* help newcomers somewhat, = but if used as an overriding principle it can result in an overly sparse ke= ybinding space or in problematic physical combinations like single-finger h= urdles. > > >So it's always a choice --- does one wish to create a system that is > >"easy to learn" but painful to use, or one that "a little harder to > >learn" with the benefit of being extremely efficient in the > >long-run. I still think VI's nav keys are one of the best choices I've > >seen from an ergonomics point of view, but completely "unintuitive" > >for whatever "intuitive" means. > > Agreed. Vi's default navigation keybindings are, frankly, better than Em= acs' (or at least they are on a QWERTY keyboard). It also takes people a l= ong time to learn them. > > (I'm not suggesting Emacs change its default here: too many people have l= earned the existing way, the efficiency gain is not so huge anyway, and oth= er bits of Emacs have been built around the assumptions of those default na= vigational keybindings so there's no telling what full effects of such a sw= itch would be at this point.) > > Best regards, > -Karl > Fair enough.=C2=A0 My thoughts were centered on how to explain to newcomers= the use/benefits of 'C-g', especially within the manual.=C2=A0 I was curio= us what perspectives others have. My understanding of the discussion prior to my interjection was that newcom= ers appear to misunderstand, are reluctant to use, or forget about 'C-g'.= =C2=A0 I hope I didn't derail the convo into one of changing the physical l= ocation or the keybinding!=C2=A0 There's too much history to change 'C-g'.= =C2=A0 For better or worse, it's what we have.