From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: excalamus--- via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 00:11:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <06bcddd4-6991-e4f7-e944-93de14af263d@yandex.ru> <87h7wjsd8o.fsf@red-bean.com> <20897f01-122d-7f91-eac2-70f5ad75796f@yandex.ru> <87d077qfmm.fsf@red-bean.com> Reply-To: excalamus@tutanota.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_68561_1532019358.1589494263380" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="4477"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Dmitry Gutov , =?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=C3=B6hler?= , Emacs Devel To: Karl Fogel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri May 15 00:11:51 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZM51-00012N-9W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 15 May 2020 00:11:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44040 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZM50-0007DO-C3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 18:11:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42662) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZM4K-0006lM-9z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 18:11:08 -0400 Original-Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:54736) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZM4I-000610-5I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 18:11:07 -0400 Original-Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60550FA0805; Thu, 14 May 2020 22:11:03 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1589494263; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=aDzFKp7ngoecAMDsSsEuknqY5jDOHMPNIuQIzkEkYyA=; b=WEZhBsMlBf9P5rcvTHdSak0It3uFe3utvxBIhKx33tTcYVkQqSt2Hwy8FDkyMPrn b8yUfatEVjy0XALhT9irgPAdrhGDYqKbTQinmyh+Xfk3vCvrGsLQuCrbukm7nFf2iGW H23O9dMgM3Bug0Ajz01l79q2XymGWT7vRXWCNWGFdSGYWXaN3DDXkk/S40zbsHgMNb6 jQOziL/uM26BFearGqsvtWmgP3Z7KO3pzbJer42w80DaRsli0yVxz8oRhf/GoDl6YbX n7f8p8kx9C3bY9gocSGABLATKxIFOybddC1WlMfb+dmrQceWehEOHaNXBUJULDslRf2 /zzGE1iIxA== In-Reply-To: <87d077qfmm.fsf@red-bean.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.162; envelope-from=excalamus@tutanota.com; helo=w1.tutanota.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/14 17:26:05 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250301 Archived-At: ------=_Part_68561_1532019358.1589494263380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May 14, 2020, 00:56 by kfogel@red-bean.com: > So there's some concrete guidance about *how* we might seek to improve th= e Getting Started guide (and other things like the Emacs web site, starter = videos, etc): > > * Tell newcomers up front that Emacs really starts to be worth it after a= few years, not a few weeks. Set expectations right from the start. > > * Show them some of the abilities they will eventually have, so that they= can see why it's worth it to make the investment. > > * Also tell them about the ways in which Emacs may frustrate them along t= he way, and explain that those frustrations are common and are sometimes in= evitably entangled with the same things that make Emacs winning in the long= term. > > I could try to list more of those ways, if it would be helpful > Yes!=C2=A0 Please do!=C2=A0 I would like to contribute toward improving the= internal guide(s). I am very much interested in figuring out: what expectations we should set from the start what abilities users will learn, precisely what frustrations they will encounter and how to overcome them Basically, I think Emacs could benefit from an explicit path to learning (i= .e. a built in path).=C2=A0=20 On StackExchange, I authored a popular response to "How to start learning E= macs Lisp" (https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/47318/how-can-i-start= -learning-emacs-lisp/47320#47320) .=C2=A0 That respon= se garners votes regularly; it's information people want.=C2=A0 I think lea= rning Emacs leads naturally to learning Emacs Lisp. Since I update that response occasionally (and have written several unpubli= shed updates to it), I feel I should just contribute officially.=C2=A0 If y= ou can continue to share your experience, I think that would help me. > Here is the principle, reworded slightly after a suggestion from H. Diete= r Wilhelm: > > "GNU Emacs's raison d'=C3=AAtre is to be the text manipulation environmen= t that best rewards sustained user investment." > Having these kinds of characterizations, I think, helps "sell" Emacs' virtu= es. I have rewritten the intro (emacs) to try demonstrating this.=C2=A0 See= https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-05/msg01889.html I am interested, what other virtues do people feel GNU Emacs has? ------=_Part_68561_1532019358.1589494263380 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May 14, 2020, 00:56 by kfogel@red-bean.com:
So there's some concrete guidance about *how*= we might seek to improve the Getting Started guide (and other things like = the Emacs web site, starter videos, etc):

* Te= ll newcomers up front that Emacs really starts to be worth it after a few y= ears, not a few weeks. Set expectations right from the start.

* Show them some of the abilities they will eventually hav= e, so that they can see why it's worth it to make the investment.
=

* Also tell them about the ways in which Emacs may frus= trate them along the way, and explain that those frustrations are common an= d are sometimes inevitably entangled with the same things that make Emacs w= inning in the long term.

I could try to list = more of those ways, if it would be helpful
Yes!&= nbsp; Please do!  I would like to contribute toward improving the inte= rnal guide(s).

I am very much interested in fi= guring out:
  • what expectations we should set from the start=
  • what abilities users will learn, precisely
  • what fr= ustrations they will encounter and how to overcome them
B= asically, I think Emacs could benefit from an explicit path to learning (i.= e. a built in path). 

On StackExchange, = I authored a popular response to "How to start learning Emacs Lisp" (https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/47318/= how-can-i-start-learning-emacs-lisp/47320#47320).  That response g= arners votes regularly; it's information people want.  I think learnin= g Emacs leads naturally to learning Emacs Lisp.

Since I update that response occasionally (and have written several unpub= lished updates to it), I feel I should just contribute officially.  If= you can continue to share your experience, I think that would help me.
=
Here is the principle,= reworded slightly after a suggestion from H. Dieter Wilhelm:

"GNU Emacs's raison d'=C3=AAtre is to be the text manipulat= ion environment that best rewards sustained user investment."
Having these kinds of characterizations, I think, helps = "sell" Emacs' virtues. I have rewritten the intro (emacs) to try demonstrat= ing this.  See htt= ps://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-05/msg01889.html

I am interested, what other virtues do people = feel GNU Emacs has?



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