From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: excalamus--- via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 23:26:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: Reply-To: excalamus@tutanota.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_67070_499252732.1589491565385" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="76486"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: Eduardo Ochs Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 23:27:04 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZLNf-000Jhu-0h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 23:27:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58346 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZLNe-0002vD-1J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 17:27:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48922) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZLMp-0002Vz-0x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 17:26:11 -0400 Original-Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:45144) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZLMm-00041N-Dm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 17:26:10 -0400 Original-Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B3BFA03C8; Thu, 14 May 2020 21:26:05 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1589491565; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=138cp8KQexK5UUBLyhpirKfyewyfGo+zz+BsuCAatms=; b=jSiSBqZPWc5IRE3/JmXnRekuZSlplGaQZWfAKA3Xl8Tu55tI94kfM42uTxCKFftV 3PP8yLKdwMlnZOFR9/1Nu53VzbQm1ddXfr7jtT5XR/wgeVFQZkqOD8a5nsZkDEpIxfO tK6B0jI2Kzn5r77lFI8nARTje7vp+3Zw42Pr5eXB149Z1PVt64eEW9Kts5tmBQna3l3 91eFy0gfRWZqQ6EEWNNh3kUZ7atRuipvmYytex/A3xXbMj3QWr2NODP4hoq6UFAWSqz dAf4Y7OuQyg6nsFnlM+o4DBa1PDJnpW9I6cwQ13v+fDOvlHK7cgjoU0ioze09jubSjt IgKa+RGQlg== In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.162; envelope-from=excalamus@tutanota.com; helo=w1.tutanota.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/14 17:26:05 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250297 Archived-At: ------=_Part_67070_499252732.1589491565385 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May 14, 2020, 02:24 by eduardoochs@gmail.com: > this is so different from the raisons d'=C3=AAtre for Emacs that are bein= g > discussed in the other thread that I felt that it would be better to > create a new thread to discuss it... > > Emacs lets people with very little experience in programming write > useful programs that are just one or two lines long - and this turns > non-programmers into programmers magically, sometimes without them > noticing. In many cases new users start writing one-liners in Lisp in > their first days using Emacs - so for them it takes just a few days to > be magically transformed into a programmer. > > This is very different from having to invest time in energy in Emacs > during years to be adequately rewarded. > Agreed! I brought this up in the other thread:=C2=A0https://lists.gnu.org/a= rchive/html/emacs-devel/2020-05/msg01872.html=C2=A0 I concluded that Emacs = seems unique because it occupies a unique space between user and creator.= =C2=A0 Your observations match mine, so maybe a unique space *does* exist. My questions to you: 1. What makes that space the way it is? 2. Do other editors, like VSCode, exist in it, too?=C2=A0 If yes, why does = GNU Emacs feel different?=C2=A0 If no, why not? The best description of that space that I can think of is the Zone of Proxi= mal Development (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_proximal_development= ) : The zone of proximal development is an area of learning that occurs when a = person is assisted by a teacher or peer with a higher skill set.=C2=A0 The = person learning the skill set cannot complete it without the assistance of = the teacher or peer. The teacher then helps the student attain the skill th= e student is trying to master, until the teacher is no longer needed for th= at task. For example: Emacs presents a challenge to the user.=C2=A0 The challenge can be solved t= hrough programming, but the user is unable to do this.=C2=A0 To help, Emacs= provides ready made components, functions bound to keys, which complete th= e task when chained together.=C2=A0 The user realizes at some point that 1)= these actions are functions and 2) they have the ability to write them.=C2= =A0 Emacs provides the structure required for the user to learn through sou= rce code (higher skill set) and C-h f (assistance). I believe that other editors could occupy this space but do not.=C2=A0 Othe= r editors are either word processors or IDEs.=C2=A0 Emacs is a hybrid; ther= e are authors who use Emacs solely for writing and the are developers who u= se it solely for programming.=C2=A0 Emacs feels different because it shorte= ns the distance between question and answer.=C2=A0 Other editors require se= arching externally (does MS Word even still have F1 help?).=C2=A0 Emacs can= be searched inside and out. ------=_Part_67070_499252732.1589491565385 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May 14, 2020, 02:24 by eduardoochs@gmail.com:
this is so different from the raisons d'=C3= =AAtre for Emacs that are being
discussed in the other thread= that I felt that it would be better to
create a new thread t= o discuss it...

Emacs lets people with very li= ttle experience in programming write
useful programs that are= just one or two lines long - and this turns
non-programmers = into programmers magically, sometimes without them
noticing. = In many cases new users start writing one-liners in Lisp in
t= heir first days using Emacs - so for them it takes just a few days to
be magically transformed into a programmer.

This is very different from having to invest time in energy in Emacs=
during years to be adequately rewarded.
Agreed! I brought this up in the other thread: https://li= sts.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-05/msg01872.html  I conc= luded that Emacs seems unique because it occupies a unique space between us= er and creator.  Your observations match mine, so maybe a unique space= *does* exist.

My questions to you:
<= div>1. What makes that space the way it is?
2. Do other edito= rs, like VSCode, exist in it, too?  If yes, why does GNU Emacs feel di= fferent?  If no, why not?

The best descri= ption of that space that I can think of is the Zone of Proximal Development= (ht= tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_proximal_development):

The zone of proximal development is an area of learning th= at occurs when a person is assisted by a teacher or peer with a higher skill set.  T= he person learning the skill set cannot complete it without the=20 assistance of the teacher or peer. The teacher then helps the student=20 attain the skill the student is trying to master, until the teacher is=20 no longer needed for that task.

For example:

Emacs presents a challenge to the user.  T= he challenge can be solved through programming, but the user is unable to d= o this.  To help, Emacs provides ready made components, functions boun= d to keys, which complete the task when chained together.  The user re= alizes at some point that 1) these actions are functions and 2) they have t= he ability to write them.  Emacs provides the structure required for t= he user to learn through source code (higher skill set) and C-h f (assistan= ce).

I believe that other editors could occupy= this space but do not.  Other editors are either word processors or I= DEs.  Emacs is a hybrid; there are authors who use Emacs solely for wr= iting and the are developers who use it solely for programming.  Emacs= feels different because it shortens the distance between question and answ= er.  Other editors require searching externally (does MS Word even sti= ll have F1 help?).  Emacs can be searched inside and out.

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