From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Getting more info on a variable in Customize buffers Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:12:49 -0800 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1104863408 7064 80.91.229.6 (4 Jan 2005 18:30:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:30:08 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 04 19:29:58 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CltFH-0001Ea-00 for ; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:17:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CltQU-0002A7-Bf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:29:02 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CltPe-0001jL-WC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:28:11 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CltPd-0001id-I3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:28:09 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CltPd-0001i8-DD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:28:09 -0500 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.230] (helo=agminet03.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1CltAy-0002r7-D4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:13:00 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet03.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j04ICqVs028134; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:12:52 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.50]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j04ICpvw028109; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:12:51 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j04ICp5t015893; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:12:51 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw2-141-144-82-222.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.82.222]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j04ICkNx015796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:12:50 -0700 Original-To: "Per Abrahamsen" , X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:31833 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31833 > In fact, that is perhaps another, general problem: how to know how to > customize Customize. M-x customize-group customize Or from a customize buffer, select Custom -> Customize from the menu bar (they are all there). That just brings up the customize buffer for the Customize group. I meant that there is no doc that tells you _how to use the Customize UI_. I'm thinking of a simple doc that describes the various UI features in a Customize buffer (what you see, how it works). Maybe a Customize buffer should be self explanatory, but it's not - look at the custom-unlispify discussion and the discussion of what Show Initial Lisp Expression really means, both in this thread. > If nothing else, I would hope that it would serve as an options > browser (like `edit-options'). I like the customize-browse interface way better for browsing than using customize-group. Try it. I don't have a problem considering either one of those a browser for customize. My point was that Customize is not only a UI for _changing_ variable values: it is also a browser for viewing information about variables (including their values) and their interrelations (e.g. grouping into libraries). I wrote the following in response to the claim that we shouldn't provide a link to the source-code definition because if you need to look at the source code then you shouldn't be using Customize: And the question is not just whether you _need_ to consult the source code to be able to _customize_ a variable - Customize is not just for changing things (customizing); it is also an options and options-groups _browser_ (remember `edit-options'?). Even if a doc string is perfect, I might want to consult the code - and I doubt that I am alone in that. > See the > Manual button I mentioned above, for instance: If we assume that Customize > users are to shun Lisp, then why send them to the Lisp manual for info on > how to code customize groups and such? Because there were no user manual for customize at the time the :link was added, and nobody have bothered to edit it since a customize section was added to the user manual. Please send a patch or a bug report. Done: you just sent a bug report.