From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Changed outside --> set, in Customize UI Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:27:52 -0800 Message-ID: References: <200502090138.j191csE18773@raven.dms.auburn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1107917020 26780 80.91.229.2 (9 Feb 2005 02:43:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:43:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 09 03:43:39 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyhpF-0006M4-NZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 03:43:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Cyi3h-0003WI-96 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:58:29 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CyhyW-0001Dr-Sz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:53:09 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CyhyF-00015K-04 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:52:52 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyhyD-0000yp-O7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:52:49 -0500 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.230] (helo=agminet03.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1CyhaH-0003gl-Br for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:28:05 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet03.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j192RwQN022306; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:27:58 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.50]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j192RvGU022271; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:27:57 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j192RuYg021540; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:27:56 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-66-208.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.66.208]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j192Rtf0021531 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:27:56 -0700 Original-To: "Luc Teirlinck" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200502090138.j191csE18773@raven.dms.auburn.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:33110 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:33110 I meant arguments about the desirability in the UI of "outside" + "inside" vs just changed". I haven't seen those arguments. From my previous message: I believe that it is possible that we might still need "Set outside Custom" after fixing the hooks-listvars bugs. If you have set an option in your .emacs ten years ago, you need some reminder that you actually set it in your .emacs, or you might have forgotten it. Referring to something set in .emacs as "Set for the current" session would be very confusing because things set in .emacs outside and inside the `custom-set-variables' form are set in the same session. I believe that even after any reimplementation, a change made in .emacs should definitely never be equated with something "Set for the current session". It is just as permanent as something set in the custom-set-variables form. If the "Set outside Custom" would be replaced by something, it would be by a statement that the part _controlled by Custom_ is at standard setting. At least that would be the case for hooks and similar list-vars. For other options, we still may need the "Set outside Custom", depending on what we do with them. Please see my message "New tack for Customize" (today). I think we agree now about custom-file changes being reflected in Customize as neither "changed outside" nor "set", but as "Custom File" (or another name with that meaning). (This is not the same thing as `standard', BTW.)