From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Eliminating "changed in Emacs outside of Customize" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:38:11 -0800 Message-ID: References: <87lla8xdps.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1107291640 18682 80.91.229.2 (1 Feb 2005 21:00:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:00:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Per Abrahamsen , rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 01 22:00:39 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw58S-0008S7-MJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:00:33 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw5LR-0006XI-UV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:13:57 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw59O-0002ZH-6K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:01:30 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw599-0002S4-2X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:01:16 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw598-0002Ou-VR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:01:14 -0500 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.231] (helo=agminet04.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1Cw4my-0005hb-Bf; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:38:20 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet04.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j11KcIN4028825; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:38:18 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.50]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j11KcGmI028784; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:38:16 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j11KcGRM028254; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:38:16 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-81-59.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.81.59]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j11KcET8028244 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:38:15 -0700 Original-To: "Stefan Monnier" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <87lla8xdps.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:32721 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:32721 > Was this unclear: > If you .emacs, or some third party code you > activate from ".emacs", contains "(setq foo 42)" and you change and > save "foo" from customize, you changes to the variable through > customize will be overwritten next time you start Emacs. It's crystal clear to me, but let me try to rephrase it, to see if it helps other people: - Let's imagine user Helen has had a (setq-default fill-column 42) in her .emacs (or maybe it's in some package that she doesn't even remember she's loading from a .emacs). - Now let's imagine that Helen notices that her fill-column is too small and she wants to set it to something else, like 70. - She does M-x customize-variable RET fill-column RET, then changes the value, then saves. - When she restarts, fill-column is 42 again. - Since she's not arrogant, she figures she must have made a mistake so she goes through the customize-variable thingy again. - When she restarts, fill-column is still stuck at 42. - Then comes M-x report-emacs-bug. Of course the above problem will only happen if the (setq-default fill-column 42) happens to be executed after Helen's custom-set-variables (e.g. in a mode-hook or in one of the many poorly written major modes that happily mess up global variables). Right. I believe that's exactly the behavior I described, as well. What is not at all clear (to me) is what this has to do with the supposed need to distinguish, for the user, a value that is changed using a customize buffer from a value that is changed otherwise. The original question was that: "What would be wrong with treating, in the Customize UI, outside changes the same as inside changes?" IOW, nothing in the above description (Stefan's or Per's) makes any mention of replacing "changed outside" by "set" in the Customize UI. The above description holds perfectly in today's vanilla Emacs, does it not? If so, are we in fact getting such bug reports from Helen? If so, then maybe something could be done to make the behavior clearer to her. Beyond that, what does this have to do with the question: "What would be wrong with treating outside changes the same as inside changes - in the Customize UI?" - Drew