From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Should the mode line extend under the scroll bar? Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:14:27 -0700 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1096827323 2450 80.91.229.6 (3 Oct 2004 18:15:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 18:15:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 03 20:15:08 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CEAt1-0005Ss-00 for ; Sun, 03 Oct 2004 20:15:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CEAzZ-0007o1-R6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:21:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CEAzR-0007nl-Uw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:21:46 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CEAzR-0007nE-6R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:21:45 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CEAzR-0007nB-4K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:21:45 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.230] (helo=agminet03.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1CEAsf-0001lf-9Z; Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:14:45 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw2.us.oracle.com (rgmgw2.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.11]) by agminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i93IEaMM025310; Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:14:36 -0700 Original-Received: from rgmgw2.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i93IEalB016507; Sun, 3 Oct 2004 12:14:36 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-65-21.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.65.21]) by rgmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id i93IEZID016500; Sun, 3 Oct 2004 12:14:35 -0600 Original-To: "Kim F. Storm" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:27845 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:27845 Good point. I agree that some visual means of associating the scroll bar with its window might be a good thing. We don't have to lump the two issues together though, and decide whether Emacs 20 or 21 is better in this regard. We can perhaps DTRT by combining your point with mine: 1. Make the drag-handle affordance visible. Give some space and maybe a graphic that indicates what it's for (e.g. the drag-handle cursor glyph). 2. Visually associate the scroll bar with its window (not necessarily the window's mode line. Your point about mode-line sensitivity under the scroll bar (that is, where the drag handle is) is precisely my second point - vertical bar dragging should be disassociated from mode-line activation (sensitivity). This interference is an unpleasant side effect. So, the questions are, IMO: - How best to visually associate the scroll bar with its window in such a way that this association does not interfere with vertical-line dragging? - How to dissociate mode-line activation (sensitivity) from vertical-line dragging? A drag handle "some pixels wider" is maybe a solution, but we can perhaps do better. How successful this solution would be would need to be tested - it depends on how small the drag-handle area is, and how easily the mode-line sensitivity still interferes with vertical-line dragging. If a good solution doesn't occur to us - that is, if we're ultimately forced to choose between the two desirables #1 and #2 above, then I would choose #1. Why? Because the scroll bar is obvious; the drag handle is not obvious. Just trying the scroll bar out is enough to quickly teach you which window it belongs to (though I hear your point about 21.4 and diff windows having diff scroll-bar positions). The scroll bar is there; just try it to see which window is affected. Without adequate real estate (and perhaps a drag-handle graphic), however, the _existence_ of the drag handle can be _missed entirely_. Also, I don't think that extending the mode line under the scroll bar is a good way to associate the two (or, what's really wanted, to associate the scroll bar with the window). There must be a better way (if one is needed). From: Kim F. Storm > Emacs 20: Emacs 21: > M M M M > XXXXXXX.ZZZZZZZ. XXXXXXXXZZZZZZZZ > > The squares where the `.' are were visible drag handles for the windows. IMO the emacs 21 display behaviour is better as it indicates which window the scroll bar belongs to. This is more important with 21.4 where each window can control the position of its own scrollbar (left/right). However, I do think we can make the grab area some pixels wider without too much trouble. However, now since the modeline does extend under the scrollbar, there may be mouse-sensitive elements on the modeline at those positions, so we should be careful not to disrupt the access to those elements (especially when the scrollbar is on the left side).