From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: xah lee Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#631: the M- notation suggestion Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:53:21 -0700 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: xah lee , 631@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217473712 8224 80.91.229.12 (31 Jul 2008 03:08:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:08:32 +0000 (UTC) Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 31 05:09:22 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KOOXC-0003eO-5F for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:09:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52866 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KOOWD-0007Eu-Mm for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:07:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOOW5-0007CJ-0b for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:07:49 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOOVy-00079A-1y for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:07:48 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=37147 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KOOVx-00078x-Sd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:07:41 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:45810) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KOOVv-00005E-Cp for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:07:41 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m6V37Lus003003; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:07:21 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id m6V3040A032341; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:00:04 -0700 X-Loop: don@donarmstrong.com Resent-From: xah lee Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:00:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: don@donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: report 631 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B.121747290230978 (code B ref -1); Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:00:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 31 Jul 2008 02:55:02 +0000 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id m6V2svSa030950 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:54:59 -0700 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOOJd-0002rU-Ku for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:54:57 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KOOJb-0002rI-49 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:54:56 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=51061 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KOOJa-0002rF-Vg for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:54:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.194]:58326) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KOOJW-0007SG-KL; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:54:50 -0400 Original-Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-24-6-97-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.97.120]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKpCa-1KOOJT1U3R-0004fB; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:54:49 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+nWSVSO6NTYN9E/PDW2kekKXyq04sUEiUEgpv cswXhkUFQ+Tc/NSl2gPyMCs+fFxFBM4ATfjk+VjD6LVkp4bwEG CTluzc2X7X2eGkbrFe1XQ== X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:07:48 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:18934 Archived-At: > I think you mean "GNU/Linux". Yes. GNU/Linux. Sorry i forgot i'm talking to you. LOL. (i do support =20= GNU/Linux naming) > Linux has no user interface and its > documentation has no reason to refer to any specific keys. In Gnome or KDE, when you pull menus, doesn't the shortcut shows =20 beside the menu command names? I think I forgot to mention this. I think if this suggestion is to be =20= adapted, changing the shortcut notation as they are displayed in =20 menus should be part of it. Perhaps even more important than the manual. > Our convention for the GNU system is C-x and M-x, which is what you > are proposing to change. > > Using a notation that contains the actual label on keyboard's =20 > keys is > much easier to understand. A beginning computer user, can read the > ?Ctrl+?key?? notation and figure out which keys to press. > > There is some validity in that argument. > > For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful. > But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for > all of them. Wasteful, as in too much effort and little benefit? I think the effort would be few hours of interactive find/replace in =20 the emacs manual's info source. O, there's also emacs tutorial info =20 file. Possibly a few more. the other part is to fix the elisp code so that menus display =20 shortcuts using the Alt+ ant Ctrl+ notations. I'm not sure how this =20 can be done or how much effort it takes. I think the benefit would be great, because it gets rid of one big =20 learning curve perception that stops people from using emacs. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84 ------------------- On Jul 30, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Richard M Stallman wrote: The Alt+?key? or Ctrl+?key? notation is universal among Windows and Linux. I think you mean "GNU/Linux". Linux has no user interface and its documentation has no reason to refer to any specific keys. Our convention for the GNU system is C-x and M-x, which is what you are proposing to change. Using a notation that contains the actual label on keyboard's =20 keys is much easier to understand. A beginning computer user, can read the ?Ctrl+?key?? notation and figure out which keys to press. There is some validity in that argument. For the Emacs Manual I have a feeling this would be very wasteful. But maybe it would be ok for some of the help commands, maybe even for all of them. =E2=98=84