From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_Change_terminology_to_better_align_users=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?Q?_experience_with_modern_GUIs?= Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:13:26 +0900 Message-ID: References: <58E90D68-5CE4-425F-BB5F-07533665ADC0@icloud.com> <20190723093721.GA29541@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="44203"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 23 12:13:44 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hprni-000BMg-8f for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:13:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40842 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hprnh-0004HA-7Q for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:13:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58426) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hprnc-0004Gr-Nc for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:13:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hprnb-0005hH-0h for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:13:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mr85p00im-ztdg06021801.me.com ([17.58.23.195]:50559) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hprna-0005eb-OP for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:13:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1563876812; bh=cAq3Br1DqBJ6LgURDj6QJev6FCIwlU0wKDraY2X9JNY=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=soVDSk5WaxCRP90qx31nGr6Z9xfDPbd/nz4s8hcz1vDxKBVVvJiKID1YNqYgiqWYn yjVsidC7a1+5ACW5WL9dPJmAsVZ8xdDHO52qrdDRnzDJBKsB3maSxht22Vz7MV+2z+ POKRS9/znyxhZXhZT//hkgHRZNHXKpiyIgCQS8gi3HCfdCAhNLNTJvG90lPbF0rd2e d3w9K+QCUZ+gp8yyq/rXs66xgjTsIS2mrU0cN6MCG/VWSsS9eLKxgPWVU57rOvo2D3 zgevcM/COMBynqB+jlqj8P4Y0Xh9WX5bpB6EqHuMi7/MtO9p1QYe+Cm3qiLo/r1g29 zxSf5zwT0RE3g== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.11] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by mr85p00im-ztdg06021801.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 62B86180B0D; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:13:31 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <20190723093721.GA29541@protected.rcdrun.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-07-23_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1812120000 definitions=main-1907230097 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 17.58.23.195 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:121233 Archived-At: > 2019. 7. 23. =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 6:37, Jean Louis = =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >=20 > * =EC=A1=B0=EC=84=B1=EB=B9=88 [2019-07-23 = 08:47]: >> Is there any intent or interest in updating the terminology of Emacs = documentation/function names to better align users=E2=80=99 experience = with modern GUIs?=20 >>=20 >> For example, `window' and `buffer' in emacs is more meaningful when >> explained as `pane' or `document'. >=20 > One word may have different definitions, right? >=20 > The Emacs manual explains the definitions. >=20 > I understand your viewpoint, you learned some other definitions for > same words and now you face little confusion. But imagine how many > people are there, so many of them would come from random environments > and would be faced with new definitions, so it would not be feasible > to change definitions to satisfy each particular wish, but I know that > changes and modifications are made by Emacs developers whenever it > benefits the majority. No, I=E2=80=99ve been using Emacs for about ~2 years, definitely not an = Emacs guru but done enough elisp that I understand what each term means. > In Emacs `buffer' is not necessarily connected to any file > document. Do you know? I=E2=80=99m aware of that. The reason why I was suggesting `document' is because that=E2=80=99s = what other editors usually call that; I would be totally fine for another kind of = term that=E2=80=99s meanings are clear to new users. >> Especially the term `window' is a frequent source of confusion to >> Emacs newcomers which confuse them to `frame'. >=20 > Me not sure about that. I did not have confusion since 1999, since I > started using Emacs and stopped using that other system. But I did > take my time to read the books and manuals, and there were too many > new definitions of commands and terminology in the GNU/Linux system. >=20 > So facing the new terminology ALWAYS take place when learning some new > subject. Yes, it is true. When learning a new subject (especially when it comes=20= to emacs) people should look forwards to learn new terminology. However, it might be good practice to lower the barriers to approach = Emacs to a lot of people, considering that the majority of people who are = using computers have used graphical window systems. >> IMO in my ideal world, there should be no division between `window' = and `buffer', the difference should be abstracted away so that users = don=E2=80=99t have to know the `window' notion at all. >> However that currently isn=E2=80=99t the case, there are multiple = occurrences (and a dedicated chapter) in the Emacs manual about `window' = and `buffer'. >>=20 >> Changing the `window' term to `pane' or something else seems like a = low-hanging fruit for people who would like to try using Emacs; I=E2=80=99= m interested/curious on other people=E2=80=99s opinions about this. >=20 > I am also not native English speaker. It should be logical from > physical world that a window consists of frames and panes eventually. >=20 > Those definitions are different from Emacs terminology. >=20 > And I would leave it how it is. Do you know why? >=20 > Because Emacs is an important part of civilization and development of > many other apparently not related pieces of software. Because Emacs is an important part of civilization and development, it might be better to adopt with the =E2=80=98outer world=E2=80=99 so = that it can keep gathering people. > It brings to easier understanding of its history. I have here a > document AI Memo 554, from October 22nd 1981, EMACS Manual for ITS > Users. Now I am not sure if they had any graphical environment at that > time. >=20 > That company that sells operating system Windows maybe started in the > same year some plans for it, but nothing was released until > 1985. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows#Early_versions >=20 > And in the EMACS Manual for ITS Users the words "windows" are > mentioned. I understand the =E2=80=98why=E2=80=99 part of the original terminology; = however, while ITS has been discontinued for a long time, Emacs is used in the 21th century where windowing systems are common (the majority). Updating the terminology in a way that doesn=E2=80=99t interfere with = the original ones doesn=E2=80=99t harm IMO. > What if they did not use graphical system? Then it was a console or > terminal based application. Monitor would not be considered a window > so that screen tilings become pane. I=E2=80=99m not sure if the term `pane' implies that, for example people = use=20 the terminology `pane' in tmux, a terminal multiplexer. > I think that logic of "window" comes from the console or terminal > based operation. >=20 > And Emacs is widely used through terminal modes, so changing > terminology would break the logic for those users. While I know such people who use Emacs exclusively in terminals, most of = them have used/use window systems; they are very familiar with the usual = `window=E2=80=99 terminology in general. IMHO, the change of terminology wouldn=E2=80=99t be an issue to terminal = users as the terminology `pane=E2=80=99 also makes sense in terminals. > Jean >=20