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* Re: Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions
@ 2012-11-06 17:55 Dmitry Gutov
  2012-11-07  0:53 ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2012-11-06 17:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: eliz; +Cc: Adrian.B.Robert, emacs-devel

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

 >> From: Adrian Robert <Adrian.B.Robert@gmail.com>
 >> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 17:24:08 +0000 (UTC)
 >>
 >> Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen <at> xemacs.org> writes:
 >>
 >> >
 >> > Nix writes:
 >> >
 >> >  > (Even on mobile devices with touchscreens, where you swipe the text
 >> >  > to move the text up, that operation is *still* called 'scrolling
 >> >  > down'.)
 >> >
 >> > Which drives me nuts, because it's the text that moves (and that's
 >> > true in editors, as well).  For me it's "page down" but "scroll the
 >> > text up".  "Scroll [nothing in particular but Do What I Mean dammit]
 >> > <direction>" is just uninterpretable to me.
 >>
 >> Sure, the text moves, but we don't care about it.
 >
 > Alas, people _do_ care about what they do vs what they say or see.
 > Try calling something white "black" and see if it sticks.

Sure, people do care. The main difference is what's to be considered the
point of reference. If we consider the text as more "important", then it
feels "glued in place", and the window scolls down. If, on the other 
hand, the editor is the center of the universe, then yes, the window 
doesn't move anywhere, it's the text that scrolls up.

 >> "Scroll down" refers to what happens with the *viewer's* perspective
 >> into the content that we are focusing on.
 >
 > This reasoning would work if you'd need to swipe the window's frame
 > down, and text would then move up.  But that's not what's happening:
 > the user must explicitly swipe the text UP.
 >
 > This is different from desktops, where you press a key labeled "Page
 > Down", and don't make any gestures in the upward direction.

A good physical analogy might be climbing a tree. You're climbing down,
but when each of yours hands is touching the tree, it's going up
relative to you. When climbing up, vice versa.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <201211080338.qA83c7NY006393@winooski.ccs.neu.edu>]
* Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions
@ 2012-11-04 14:10 Dani Moncayo
  2012-11-04 14:37 ` Stefan Monnier
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Dani Moncayo @ 2012-11-04 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs development discussions

Hello,

After reading (info "(emacs) Scrolling"), I think the Emacs
terminology for specifying scrolling directions is pretty confusing:

1.  The terms "up" and "down" have the opposite meanings of the ones
commonly used in the (non-emacs) world.  The info node explains that
this is for historical reasons; OK, but then, why don't we try to find
a solution?  (see below)

2.  The terms "forward" and "backward" are used as synonyms for "up"
and "down" respectively.  I guess this was an attempt to mitigate the
previous problem [*], but IMO it worsens it, because:
(a) They are ambiguous: here we are talking about _vertical_
scrolling, and "forward"/"backward" could refer to horizontal
scrolling too.
(b) They take the opposite criterion: while "up"/"down" refer to the
movement of the text (relative to the window), "forward"/"backward"
refer to the movement of the window (relative to the text).  So we end
up with a confusing mix of criteria.


So here is my proposal for solving these problems:
1.  Rename the command `scroll-up' to `scroll-window-down' (an
unambiguous name, which uses the standard approach of describing the
window movement), and define `scroll-up' as an obsolete alias for
`scroll-window-down'.  Likewise for the rest of scroll commands with
"up"/"down" in their names.
2.  Remove the use of "forward" and "backward" to refer to scrolling directions.

WDYT

--- Footnotes ---

[*] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-03/msg01063.html

-- 
Dani Moncayo



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2012-11-13 17:05 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 97+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2012-11-06 17:55 Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions Dmitry Gutov
2012-11-07  0:53 ` Richard Stallman
2012-11-07 15:17   ` Drew Adams
2012-11-07 16:23     ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-07 18:03       ` Drew Adams
2012-11-07 18:34         ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-07 21:00           ` Drew Adams
2012-11-07 21:17             ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-08 22:18         ` Daniel Hackney
2012-11-07 21:12   ` Mathias Dahl
2012-11-07 21:41     ` Dmitry Gutov
2012-11-08 19:26       ` Bruce Korb
2012-11-13  9:07       ` Bastien
     [not found] <201211080338.qA83c7NY006393@winooski.ccs.neu.edu>
     [not found] ` <20635.16010.769769.433949@winooski.ccs.neu.edu>
2012-11-08 16:48   ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-09  9:50     ` martin rudalics
2012-11-09 14:17       ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-09 15:27         ` Eli Barzilay
2012-11-10 11:05         ` martin rudalics
2012-11-10 11:38           ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 14:09             ` martin rudalics
2012-11-10 14:40               ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 18:49                 ` martin rudalics
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2012-11-04 14:10 Dani Moncayo
2012-11-04 14:37 ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-04 15:00   ` Dani Moncayo
2012-11-04 17:07     ` Juanma Barranquero
2012-11-04 17:30       ` Dani Moncayo
2012-11-04 17:31       ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-04 17:35         ` Dani Moncayo
2012-11-04 18:23           ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-04 19:10             ` Dani Moncayo
2012-11-04 19:39               ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-04 20:01                 ` Dani Moncayo
2012-11-05 11:07                 ` Richard Stallman
2012-11-05 12:25                   ` Dani Moncayo
2012-11-05 14:56                     ` Nix
2012-11-05 15:39                       ` Teemu Likonen
2012-11-07  8:12                       ` Harald Hanche-Olsen
2012-11-13  9:05                         ` Bastien
2012-11-13 17:05                           ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-05  3:29           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-11-05  7:27             ` Dani Moncayo
2012-11-05 12:44             ` Jambunathan K
2012-11-05  2:44     ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-05  7:24       ` Dani Moncayo
2012-11-05 23:32         ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-06 21:29           ` Daniel Hackney
2012-11-05 11:06 ` Richard Stallman
2012-11-05 15:00   ` Nix
2012-11-06  1:25     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-11-06 17:24       ` Adrian Robert
2012-11-06 17:36         ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-06 17:50         ` Drew Adams
2012-11-06 19:14           ` John Yates
2012-11-05 18:05 ` Daniel Hackney
2012-11-06  1:53   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-11-07 16:31     ` Nix
2012-11-08  1:49       ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-08 17:33         ` Nix
2012-11-08 18:14           ` Eli Barzilay
2012-11-08 18:18             ` Nix
2012-11-08 18:39               ` Eli Barzilay
2012-11-08 18:39               ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-09  9:50                 ` martin rudalics
2012-11-09 14:18                   ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-08 18:40               ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-08 18:48                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2012-11-08 19:29                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-09  2:52                 ` Richard Stallman
2012-11-09  7:35                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-09 14:20                     ` Nix
2012-11-09 14:56                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-09 20:24                         ` Nix
2012-11-10 11:09                         ` martin rudalics
2012-11-10 11:40                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 14:11                             ` martin rudalics
2012-11-10  0:13                     ` Richard Stallman
2012-11-10  7:42                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 11:09                         ` martin rudalics
2012-11-10 11:45                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 11:48                             ` Nix
2012-11-10 14:38                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 14:47                                 ` Nix
2012-11-10 14:10                             ` martin rudalics
2012-11-10 14:49                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 18:50                                 ` martin rudalics
2012-11-10 19:09                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 11:10                       ` martin rudalics
2012-11-10 11:46                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-11-10 14:12                           ` martin rudalics
2012-11-09  9:51           ` martin rudalics
2012-11-09 14:19             ` Stefan Monnier
2012-11-10 11:05               ` martin rudalics
2012-11-08  7:18       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-11-08 11:12         ` Stephen Leake
2012-11-08 15:43           ` Drew Adams
2012-11-08 17:35             ` Nix

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