From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Common Lisp Emulation vs Common Lisp Extensions Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 08:47:07 +0900 Message-ID: References: <1E868375-1773-40FB-95F5-2E141BA7CCCA@gmail.com> <83r3cmxjf3.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1464479235 26291 80.91.229.3 (28 May 2016 23:47:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 23:47:15 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun May 29 01:47:07 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1b6nwf-0006h4-60 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 29 May 2016 01:47:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54440 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b6nwe-0006iq-A6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 May 2016 19:47:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58172) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b6nwY-0006ik-5T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2016 19:46:59 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b6nwU-0001Vr-0W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2016 19:46:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22d]:34486) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1b6nwT-0001Vn-MW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 28 May 2016 19:46:53 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id 62so8486017pfd.1 for ; Sat, 28 May 2016 16:46:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vTag7YcI3lWkYIrMpCT0UUmmoiwq730SG6VanfS9SIw=; b=QFxcAk7NiQZ7igO2/gMCB65/7BvDBI51engsXnAqBA2Udv1y4l+5MKkvJLrQXHc8EU q2HZKo8mQsXR7I2CRuZotei9Uoq2JQHFcSfe30QowCvQFJ9+WjZlvw67DEEk7U51wCj8 HWRf0cfDlpyBWBS75+shSvq1Gwc5nXiWYbqJ2QAIvFZcmZspYvbvw4WFX26SfyMdtL9z lRpz2C2olr18RmYBR9pWdZgD0LsLLiP+KxhrZzUtz/jxJfoeh8DY0M035YzQj9YtC4gt uqn9Rzb8EV+X0411hOztHZ/pytU9zdjTQiqLwexcrFsutRmkLSiSlMY2q4JR/t8TgEjz LTSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vTag7YcI3lWkYIrMpCT0UUmmoiwq730SG6VanfS9SIw=; b=Bs5xoBZxRM0G6WiVqiZcpdDSIbdjFSHUY4sdEqU935GOc1wC1/aVWUkLo3VJ/k9E4K 1TkwvOIHYSYnE6q+6Cud7KtqeMtYvL7tpgSEoNC0s56wWs0OCJ19VHhnkgFjJ91g8i5t Uf3hBDm+jkg4rmDraTfR3KdxnnG5fHsk1NNyYx+fMjnCtt8E0SeXnTzOZyfspUt1rSDX 4F1o7PnU5+s+vkgsrFnvBN6w3U9UdgdTTWalFsTC/pYclDaEz2sQyZ+UoNW7CZO9dsfe xZgM+SxsMQ/5w4YKDpD4iZmTfA/Sq7BQSjLvcu9xDp3zU6QbGAZHfjG6m78PFRSj77Ug mZEg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKy4Okc8AQqJpZg1pri3AXEqyN27TzjIhz6QwXPbH9BS9EiTdntpikaJRRqh+8lQA== X-Received: by 10.98.30.131 with SMTP id e125mr34026298pfe.32.1464479211525; Sat, 28 May 2016 16:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.24.55] (pl114.nas983.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp. [210.139.22.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x123sm22936973pfb.54.2016.05.28.16.46.49 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 28 May 2016 16:46:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83r3cmxjf3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:204118 Archived-At: Thank you Eli for the reply. =09 > 2016/05/29 0:59=E3=80=81Eli Zaretskii =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3= =83=BC=E3=83=AB=EF=BC=9A >=20 >> From: Jean-Christophe Helary >> Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 22:39:46 +0900 >>=20 >> The Elisp Reference points at a "Common Lisp Extensions" document or = chapter without specifying where to find that document. >>=20 >> Cf. p2 of the PDF (Lisp History) and 6 other references in the = manual. >>=20 >> It looks like the correct reference is: "GNU Emacs Common Lisp = Emulation" according to: >> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/cl.html >>=20 >> The Emacs Manual uses the same reference (p. 526 of the PDF) >>=20 >> It would be good to fix the two manuals to properly reference the = document. >=20 > Are you looking at the PDF versions of the manuals, As I wrote, I am using the PDF version of the Elisp Reference and of the = Emacs Manual. > or at HTML > versions? There is no PDF version for the CL, so I gave the URL. > Each one has a different title name. The PDF (and the > printed version) uses "Common Lisp Extensions", which is what appears > on the title page of the printed CL library manual. When I check here: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/cl.html I don't find anything but an HTML version for the CL library. Where did = you get your printed version ? > The HTML version > uses the name of the top node, which is "GNU Emacs Common Lisp > Emulation". Indeed, and the table of contents for info gives me "Partial Common Lisp = support for Emacs Lisp." In the Elisp nodes I get "See Lists as Sets(cl)" when in the PDF it is = "See Section =E2=80=9CLists as Sets=E2=80=9D in Common Lisp Extensions." > Does this information help to understand the confusion? Definitely. It is a serious mess :) >=20 >> Also, the web page for the GNU Emacs Manual Online uses "GNU Emacs = Common Lisp support." to describe the package and the page that is = linked to from there is "CL manual". >=20 > I see nothing wrong in the reference, it could be a Texinfo problem in > how it processes cross-references for HTML versions. I also don't see > "GNU Emacs Common Lisp support.", can you point to it more > specifically with a complete URL? http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/ Check the description for "CL". > In general, for all of the problems you mention, it is better to > provide more specific references, like the context or the name of the > node/chapter where the reference lives. Otherwise, it is very hard to > look for these instances. I understand. Sorry for the confusion. In the end, it still seems to me that we should have a better reference = system and that the media (PDF/info/HTML/print) should not modify the = way the reference looks, only the way it is accessed (links for = info/html/pdf eventually, formal reference for pdf/print). On a separate note, now that I am checking the info system, I see that = the info root menu is not very helpful either. For exemple, instead of having: Emacs * Org Mode Outline-based notes management and organizer * Emacs The extensible self-documenting text editor. etc. Wouldn't it be better to have the actual name of the nodes instead of an = abridged name ? When I open "Org Mode", I get: (org)Top = =20 Org Mode Manual *************** and below that: * Menu: * Introduction Getting started * Document structure A tree works like your brain Where "Introduction", "Document structure" etc are all the names of = their respective nodes. If we applied that to the info root menu we'd have: Emacs * Org Mode Manual Outline-based notes management and = organizer * The Emacs Editor The extensible self-documenting text = editor. * The GNU Emacs FAQ Frequently Asked Questions about Emacs. and eventually: * GNU Emacs Common Lisp Emulation instead of "CL". Of course that uses a lot more space than the current state of affairs, = but that could suggest manual writers to adopt a standard when they name = their manuals. Jean-Christophe=