From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: "'Lennart Borgman'" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org,
'Mathias Dahl' <mathias.dahl@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Menu commands to M-x history?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:26:59 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <F3A6C4A69CCE4648AD6A33AD0D8EC454@us.oracle.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <e01d8a50907271222q605e580ep8fc0c51ca9ba2d59@mail.gmail.com>
> You said that this history is for just M-x history commands. That
> semantic is really a programmers semantic. The argument we want to use
> for the user interface is rather if it is useful for users to do a
> certain thing.
Well, that's exactly the question we're discussing:
1. Whether it is useful to include commands invoked using the menu in M-x's
history.
2. If so, whether to do that by default or only on demand.
You and I say it can be useful (1); some others have seemed to say no. You say
this should be the default behavior (2); I say no. Neither of us is arguing from
the point of view of implementers. All arguments so far have been in terms of
usefulness to users. We just disagree.
> >> Don't mix the programmer semantics with the user semantics unless
> >> there is a good reason to do so. Very often there is, but not in a
> >> case like this.
> >
> > What does that mean? How did I mix them? Or what non-mixing
> > do you have in mind? IOW, what is it that you are really trying to say?
>
> Really nothing more than that the argument the M-x history is for "M-x
> executed commands" is useless. It focuses more on the programming side
> than on the user.
I don't see why. As a user, I want to see, by default, the commands I have
already entered as input to M-x.
This has nothing, for me, to do with "the programming side". It would be easy
enough for me to always use the larger list, `icicle-interactive-history', which
includes menu item, in the Icicles implementation of `M-x'. I choose not to do
so for the benefit of users. There is no difficulty in substituting a different
history variable, so your "programming side" argument is without basis.
> >> > That's important for users.
> >> Why is it important for users?
> > See what was said previously. Noise reduction.
>
> If we want to put menu commands in M-x history then it is not noise.
Again, it just means more stuff for users to search through. And in the Icicles
case, I include not only menu items but all commands invoked using
`call-interactively' (which means even more such noise).
> > Pertinence of history entries to the task at hand.
>
> I can't see why that should exclude menu commands from M-x history. Do
> you do something very special when you use the menus that you do not
> do when you use M-x?
I don't have an answer that will satisfy you, I guess. I think we can agree to
disagree.
> > You know, we _could_ always use just `minibuffer-history',
> > and have no such specificity. But that is less useful to users.
>
> And why do you say this? ... ;-)
Why would no specificity at all be less useful? Seems obvious. Although the
`commandp' predicate for `M-x' would filter out non-commands as completion
candidates, accessing non-commands from the history via `M-p' etc. would mean
plowing through irrelevant noise.
If you consider all of the possible types of completion candiates (colors,
buffers, files, commands, variables, ...), I should think the interest in having
separate, domain-specific history lists would be obvious.
> >> > It is why commands executed using key bindings are also not
> >> > included in the history list.
> >>
> >> That is a totally diffirent story since it is a different
> >> context as I said before. You really do not need any of the
> >> commands you execute with a key binding in the M-x history.
> >
> > I think you do. But only on demand.
>
> I am surprised. It seems like a very minor case.
Well, in Icicles, you can do multiple things with multiple completion
candidates. Just as you can build a keyboard macro using both keystrokes and M-x
invocations, so a combination can sometimes be useful in Icicles. At least,
that's the idea.
But I suppose that three tiers could be useful:
1. M-x commands
2. #1 + commands invoked via menu
3. #2 + the other commands invoked via `call-interactively'
Currently, I have only two tiers: #1 and #3 (including #2).
> >> Because it is intended to be helpful to newbies, Not to
> >> experienced Emacs users.
> >
> > I intend it to be helpful to both. If a newbie can learn
> > `C-h k', then s?he can learn a key to complete commands previously
> > invoked from the menu.
>
> Nothing wrong with that of course. I just mean that there is not so
> very much to care about for old time users if commands invoked from
> the menus are put in the M-x history.
You mean that adding those commands won't bother old-timers? Dunno.
> > We agree that being able to access menu items via history
> > can be helpful. We disagree whether such access should be by
> > default or on demand.
>
> Yes.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-07-27 20:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 27+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-07-20 23:05 Menu commands to M-x history? Lennart Borgman
2009-07-21 3:44 ` Bill Wohler
2009-07-22 1:43 ` Richard Stallman
2009-07-22 2:03 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-22 2:18 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-22 4:15 ` Bill Wohler
2009-07-22 18:34 ` Mathias Dahl
2009-07-27 1:47 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-27 9:51 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-27 15:48 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-27 15:59 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-27 16:21 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-27 16:39 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-27 18:57 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-27 19:22 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-27 20:26 ` Drew Adams [this message]
2009-07-27 20:53 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-27 21:16 ` Drew Adams
2009-07-27 21:34 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-07-27 21:47 ` Drew Adams
2009-08-01 20:20 ` Drew Adams
2009-08-04 17:23 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-27 22:00 ` Mathias Dahl
2009-07-21 15:31 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-07-21 17:43 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-03 21:51 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-04 17:31 ` Sillyness (was: Menu commands to M-x history?) Stefan Monnier
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